Ep. #64 Hacking Tinder to Get More Dates with Chris Harders
It has become hugely popular in just 2 years and, not just in the U.S., but now also in many other countries. Other country that I've been to in the last few months, in fact, say that it's pretty much on fire. As of April 2014, Tinder is rumored to have more than 10 million active data users. That's active users, so that's pretty important as people actually using it. That's really big. Why is this? Why is Tinder so popular right now?
Well, basically, Tinder has done a reasonable job of making the dating experience better for women. Online dating apps have suffered from too few active women so far. They've been pretty much been guy dominated. And Tinder has managed to fix this, and thus made it a lot more popular.
How Tinder works is simply that you have to log in with Facebook and you and the girl both have to click 'Like' on each other before you can talk. So this means for women a) She doesn't have 1,000 messages in her inbox from guys she's not interested in. This is a really big issue for the more attractive girls on online dating.
A couple of months ago, I somehow managed to get talking to a girl that had gotten 100s of messages on OKCupid within just a few days. She was completely overwhelmed and was just gonna basically turn the thing off and forget it because there was no way she was going to get through that, or figure out who was a good guy amongst those. So, I was really damn lucky she even read my message at all. That's kind of what you're playing with there. B) Security: online dating can be a little scary for women. Who is this guy? Are there any safety issues with this guy? Is he completely anonymous?
So, since everyone logs into Tinder with Facebook though, this helps a little bit with this issue. They can get a bit more idea of who you are and that you’re not completely anonymous or random. You're probably a real person since you have a Facebook account. So this is meant that women are more active on Tinder versus other platforms. So, for guys this means more opportunities to meet women.
The platform has also been positioned more for casual relationships and casual hookups, than other platforms for women. The Huffington Post, for example, said in one article (this article was written by a woman), "Don't use Tinder to fall in love. It is strictly for hookups." There is some truth to this and may make the Tinder a bit more interesting for you if you aren't looking for a serious relationship. But it isn't necessarily a rule. So I talk more about this with our guest in the interview today.
I also say that, from my experience, Tinder is a really fun app and is definitely worth giving a try at least once. It's a different dating experience and tends to make for more fun and adventurous dates in general.
Today, on the podcast, we have Chris Harders as our guest. He's used Tinder extensively, as part of his job as a promoter for clubs in Las Vegas, and later for his own use. I reached out to get him on the show when we reviewed his book, Conquer Tinder, which our editor Jackson Hunter gave a rating of 8.3. That's an excellent rating.
Now, I try to read everything our editors' rate highly to keep on top everything. And when I looked through this book, there was a lot of cool detail in there, which I knew would be really helpful to guys who aren't making the most of Tinder.
So that's why I got Chris on the show. I hope you enjoy it. It's, like I say, it's full of practical details. He's obviously got a lot, a lot of experience, far more than any of us are ever likely to get ourselves. So, it's really good to hear his tips and what he's learned from that experience.
Specifically, in this episode you'll learn about:
- Chris' background and what he did before starting to give dating advice (04:58)
- How Chris ended up being a virgin until the age of 23 (06:00)
- Chris talks about living in a project house for date coaching and mentoring, and the highlights (10:40)
- Transitioning from consulting to promoter, to getting involved with the Tinder app (17:05)
- How the demographics of Tinder have broadened (21:00)
- Is Tinder more of a casual dating app or for something more serious? (21:56)
- Looking at the context of the girls, the situations, and why and how they are using Tinder (23:40)
- How Tinder is different from other standard online dating platforms (27:45)
- What kind of response rates come from a first message (30:23)
- Getting started on Tinder: Keep it fun and tell a story (32:15)
- There is no playing it cool on Tinder (36:15)
- What the main objective of your first message should be (39:00)
- The number of Tinder messages involved in getting a girl's number and establishing a date (39:20)
- Moving towards having a phone conversation before meeting up with a girl (41:00)
- Playing the game in order to get to point of having a date (44:00)
- Other reasons for getting a girl's phone number on Tinder (45:45)
- The stigma girls feel of being on Tinder (47:00)
- The types of Tinder dates Chris has experienced (48:10)
- Girls are more adventurous on Tinder (51:55)
- Chris' favorite Tinder grammatical rules (54:55)
- Recommendations for advice and insights in dating, sex, and relationships (58:00)
- Top three recommendations to help men get better results with women as fast as possible (58:28)
Items Mentioned in this Episode include:
- Podcast Episode 50: A Data Driven Approach to Online Dating with Scott Valdez: Angel mentioned this Dating Skills podcast in the introduction and recommended listeners to check it out.
- Conquer Tinder: The Official Tinder Playbook: Chris’ book and recommended by Angel for practical advice.
- Luke Krogh: Chris mentioned Luke Krogh as an instructor of the project house he was living in, as the primary instructor for POA Training working under Adam Lyons and with Gambler, as well as highly recommending Luke as a mentor with the most game as an instructor. Chris noted the following dating and coaching experts when discussing mentoring and living in a dating and coaching project house:
- James Matador
- Mystery (Erik von Markovik)
- Neil Strauss (Style) Angel and Chris mentioned the following online dating sites when talking about understanding girls from a contextual perspective:
- Match.com: The largest paid access dating site.
- Chemistry.com: From the creators of Match.com, this site is designed for people who are looking for help in getting to know someone online towards a comfortable first date.
- okcupid.com: Free online dating site.
Books, Courses and Training from Chris Harders
Full Text Transcript of the Interview
[Angel Donovan] Chris, welcome to the podcast.
[Chris Harders] Hey, thanks for having me Angel.
[Angel Donovan] Not at all, not at all. You've got a very interesting little book, which is very practical, and we like that kind of stuff. So, I wanted to get you on to talk about the newest thing in online dating, Tinder.
Tell us a bit about yourself quickly. What is your background? What did you do before you got into this dating advice, and how did you get into it?
[Chris Harders] I was never a super-shy person, but in terms of women I was never very good. Until about age 23, I had zero results in terms of having sex with a girl, and probably the most I'd ever gone on a date with a girl was two dates with the same girl, and then things always kind of fell apart.
And I never really knew what was I doing, because I'm thinking, "I'm not a super-shy guy." I think I'm being funny, but obviously I wasn't, in the right ways. And I just really didn't know what I was doing.
But I always had this hope, "It's because I'm in college right now. I'm focusing on school, that's why." Or that I was like, "Oh no, I'm just not in good enough shape." But then I started getting in shape. I finished school. I have a job. I have money. And then I'm thinking, "How do I still not have results with these women?"
So that's when I had to take a serious step back. And at the time I was a consultant for a technology company.
[Angel Donovan] So hold on one second, because you've brought up an interesting case scenario. You were 23 years old and you were a virgin?
[Chris Harders] Correct.
[Angel Donovan] Okay, okay. This is something we haven't really spoken about, but I know it's pretty common out there. What do you think now, looking back? What had led to that?
Because in one respect, it's supposed to be socially not normal, right? In another respect, I know there's a lot of guys out there that are still virgins by the age of 23. They haven't had sex with someone. So what would you say your situation was that led to that?
[Chris Harders] Well there were two things. Since then I've taken a shift back and really looked at where I went, and then once I really started gaming hard, the results flipped very quickly. In the first three months in game, where I was dedicated, I slept with thirteen women. And looking back, I'm thinking, "How did I go from zero to thirteen in such a short amount of time?"
And it really was just a shift in mindset. I mean, I grew up in a very Catholic family. I grew up with a mom where every time a sex scene came on during a movie, she would fast forward through it. And she'd say, "Oh that's not how it happens in the real world."
So, you hear that enough times, and it starts to seed into your brain. You're thinking, "Oh maybe it is impossible." And then on top of that, I think I was just very embarrassed. At seventeen I was embarrassed always to sleep with girls. By eighteen I'm thinking, "I should have slept with a girl already," I'm embarrassed. By nineteen, twenty, twenty-one, I'm thinking, "Shoot, I was in a fraternity. How have I not slept with a girl?"
[Angel Donovan] Right, so it became an anxiety that was actually holding you back even more?
[Chris Harders] Oh, completely. And I think that's what a lot of guys experience, and they just really don't know how to get over that hump. Looking back, there's so many guys I could have asked and said, "Hey man, you're doing something right that I'm not doing. Could you give me some advice?" and that would have probably never even got me thrown into this whole pickup community to begin with.
[Angel Donovan] Right, right. So, did you date any girls up to the age of 23? Did you have a girlfriend or anything?
[Chris Harders] I never had a girlfriend. I tried online dating. I pretty much did everything wrong. I qualified the world out of myself.
[Angel Donovan] So it wasn't through lack of trying? You actually were trying, or... Because some of it sounds like, being a conservative background... So maybe some of it was you weren't even trying?
[Chris Harders] No... No, no, no. I was trying a lot! I just didn't know what I was doing at all. So, every fraternity party, I was drinking to get over my anxiety. And then I would start the conversation. I said a lot of things that just disqualified me, a lot of things that made me very silly, and very dumb, and very immature.
I would bring a girl back to my room, and then I'm back in my room with her, and I'm thinking, "Now what the hell do I do?" I was always looking for IOIs.
There's a lot of things I think guys do, the more I talk to new guys, and guys getting involved, where they're always looking for permission. They're never just going forward and taking that risk, and seeing what happens.
So, there was a lot of, "Oh shoot, did she touch her hair three times? Does that mean I can kiss her now?" And when I didn't get that feedback, I just didn't know what to do. I was just so used to...
I was very good in school, and I think that was almost something that... I was too used to feedback, too used to getting grades, too used to being told, "Oh you're doing this right, and this not right," where there is not really that sort of feedback that you get from girls. If you're not doing well, they just really won't say anything.
[Angel Donovan] Yeah, and even when you're doing well, sometimes, if the girl's at all nervous, often she's not going to be giving you signals, especially when it comes to physical escalation.
If the girl's not comfortable in that situation, then she's not going to be ready to give you the signals, so you're both kind of waiting on each other if you go with this, "I got to get permission before I go forward," kind of mindset.
[Chris Harders] Completely. And then, I think on the other end, too, is also the signals I was looking for... I was coming from such a lacking place that I just didn't believe it was even possible for me. I never imagined I would be good with same-night lays.
I thought, "Oh okay. So I think the path is going to be I'll date a lot of girls, and maybe by the third, fourth, fifth date, I'll finally sleep with them. And then I'll have a girlfriend for a very long time. And then I'll get good with dates. And then eventually, maybe, you know, ten years down the line, I'll have my first same-night lay, if I'm lucky." And that's what the path was, that I thought. What it actually ended up being was pretty much the reverse, once I got a little bit more involved with things.
[Angel Donovan] Right, right. Cool. I wanted to just quickly dig into that, because I think that's a very common scenario.
[Chris Harders] Oh yeah.
[Angel Donovan] You've described a lot of the dynamics quite well, so I think that'll be useful for the guys. So how old are you now?
[Chris Harders] So I'm 25.
[Angel Donovan] Okay, great. And you live where?
[Chris Harders] I live in LA right now, currently you're talking to me in Las Vegas. I do a little bit of traveling between Vegas, Los Angeles and San Francisco, mostly.
[Angel Donovan] Great, great. And you were telling us what you were up to before you jumped into giving dating advice to people?
[Chris Harders] Sure, sure. I graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, and very shortly after that, while I was an engineer, I had a lot of fun with software. So I became a software consultant, and I did that for about a year.
So mid-way through that I found out about an opportunity to move into a project house in Las Vegas where there was a lead instructor, a whole bunch of students... And I just couldn't pass up that opportunity. I could work anywhere doing my job, so I thought, "Okay, cool. I'll work during the day, go out at night. This seems like pretty much the perfect recipe," and it was.
[Angel Donovan] How long did you do that for?
[Chris Harders] I did the project house for about two, two-and-a-half years, and then since then myself and the mentor that was teaching me moved out of there and are doing a little bit more of our own thing now.
[Angel Donovan] Okay, so this is like a Project Hollywood kind of deal, from The Game?
[Chris Harders] Very similar set up. In fact, Mystery came through at one point... Matador, Style... We had a lot of different gurus come through to check out the place and things like that too.
[Angel Donovan] Okay, cool. And the instructor at the place, how was that organized? Was that from a company, or was it just someone who had a bit more experience than the other guys?
[Chris Harders] No, it was very freelance. But the guy who taught us, his name's Luke Krogh. Before he got involved with this project, he was the primary instructor for PUA Training. He was working under Adam Lyons for quite some time, and then with Gambler, so...
[Angel Donovan] What was the deal? You said, like, "Hey Luke, come and live with us for two years, and we'll pay you, or give you free rent, or..." How did that work out?
[Chris Harders] There was a substantial money component, in terms of me moving in. I wasn't the one who offered the opportunity to Luke, it was actually my primary wing at the time, Matt. He had been involved in a seven day program with Luke, where Luke lived with him for seven days, gave him ongoing coaching.
So Matt said, "Hey listen. I want to do this long-term with you. What do I need to do?" And Luke says, "If you get a place in Las Vegas, I'll consider doing a residential program there." So Matt just flew to Las Vegas on pure faith, rented a place for about three months, Luke finally moved in, and then the project house was born. I was the second official student, and then it just grew from there. It was a lot of fun.
[Angel Donovan] Yeah, I can imagine. That sounds like a great thing. And so, for that learning experience... I didn't know you'd done this, but it's interesting to talk about it because other guys ask about residentials and so on. From that experience, what do you think made the difference for you? What are the big highlights of it?
[Chris Harders] The big difference is that it's immersive. It's your life. One, you're working with people that are equally as motivated as you.
The rent we were paying was not cheap, and in order to be willing to put forth that kind of money month after month, in order to get this experience... That's one thing. So there's a lot of skin in the game, which makes you want to work. It makes you want to get better.
And then second, when you just have all these motivated people with very similar goals, you're pretty much guaranteed to improve. The one thing that you do need, though, is an instructor that has a vision, that knows what you need to work on, and can tell you the right things at the right time to keep you motivated, and keep you going.
[Angel Donovan] So he was going out with you guys as well, and giving feedback? And just hanging out at the house, talking about things whenever. It's kind of like, "You know, this happened to me last night. I don't understand..." This kind of stuff?
[Chris Harders] Correct. It was just ongoing all the time. So any time I had a text question, it was I'd take a screenshot, send it to Luke... Take a screenshot, send it to Luke.
Eventually I started understanding how texting works. Then eventually he's saying, "Well before I help you, how would you send the text?" And then he would correct me. That was one way I started learning the correct way to text.
And yeah, we had official training nights every Saturday. But the more important part was the informal, just, "Here's a question I got..." Him introducing me to his social circle. All that was what really mattered.
[Angel Donovan] So why did you stay? You said you were there for two-and-a-half years, why two-and-a-half years?
[Chris Harders] It just seemed like that was the course of the project. Most of the guys around that point started getting a little bit tired of it. Some people wanted to move on. Some people got very serious and wanted to take it to the next level.
So, what I've seen from different project houses, based on... They all seem to have some sort of lifespan. They all seem to last a certain amount of time before people do get a little bit tired. People do think, "I've been paying a lot for quite some time, and it is time for me to move on."
For a lot of people, they're not trying make this their entire life like I was, they're trying to make this a supplement. So they learn what they need to, and then they take off.
[Angel Donovan] Right, and that's a good way to do it. But it's basically a project in your life, and that's what I've seen over the years. There's been forums, like Mystery's Lounge and stuff, that came up for a while. People tried to keep it going forever, but after about two years, everyone had done what they wanted to do, and they moved on to other things in their life, and it just wasn't relevant anymore.
So these things do come up, and then they just die naturally, and everyone moves on. They've fixed that part of life, and they move on. So I just wanted to bring that up, because some guys might think they're going to be working on this forever.
But for most people, they dedicate a lot of time at it, for a specific amount of time, whether it's a year or two years, whatever... It depends on how good they want to get. And then they move on, and they have other goals, and other stuff in life, and it's just part of life after that.
[Chris Harders] There's a certain base layer that, once you establish that, once you understand that, it's never going to go away. So you have that, but you can do other things, and you have a lot more confidence, and it's nice to know that I have the ability to go out when I want and get what I want. So it's very powerful.
[Angel Donovan] Right, right. Alright, a couple of other things. Have you been in any relationships since then?
[Chris Harders] I have not been in any long-term relationships.
[Angel Donovan] Okay. Still to do. Why not? Are you not interested, or?
[Chris Harders] IT doesn't fit my life right now. I have a lot of fun with same-night lays, and in terms of just what I have going on with my life, it doesn't make sense for me. I have a few girls that were interested, but I'm trying to build a business. I'm trying to make money. I like to travel. It just isn't a good place for me to have a girl that I want to take care of and really spend a lot of time with.
[Angel Donovan] How many women would you say you've slept with to-date?
[Chris Harders] The number's 84 right now. For two-and-a-half years, it's been a pretty good two-and-a-half, three years. It's been a pretty good...
[Angel Donovan] You've been busy.
[Chris Harders] Yeah, yeah. I've been busy, I've been busy.
[Angel Donovan] Okay, so going forward, have you got any ideas about this area of your life? Is it going to change in the next year? In the next three years?
[Chris Harders] The next three years, maybe. For the next year or two, I'm very happy with where I'm at. I want to just keep improving. There's different ways you can always improve with game, in terms of... Maybe I have the verbal game down, but right now I'm working on a lot more social circle, in terms of just cleaning up my act a little bit.
You can be the guy going around and being silly, saying a lot of jokes. But becoming a little bit more professional, being able to operate in higher social circles, things like that, is where I'm looking to go.
[Angel Donovan] Great, great. That's often a natural evolution too. So, you were telling me a little bit earlier that you're working in a club as a promoter, and that's when this whole Tinder thing started. Can you give us a quick intro there?
[Chris Harders] The transition for me from being a consultant for a software company to the promoter thing was just... I was going out all the time. First, it was funny, we realized, "Oh, we're going to make five dollars each time we go, if we're on the guest list," so we're thinking, "Okay, well we're going out anyhow. Let's make five, ten dollars."
And then after that, I just started talking to girls and getting them to go to the club, helping other promoters, and then I'm thinking, "Why don't I make this money?"
And so that was the start, and it turns out I was very good at it. I was very good at going up to lots of girls, inviting them to the club, getting their numbers, and then bringing them out to the club.
So then what happens though is this Tinder app comes out. Now what a lot of guys think is they think that promoters have to be good with girls. That's a huge misunderstanding. A lot of promoters become promoters because they're not good with girls, and they want to become decent with girls.
Being a promoter, it's more of a numbers game than a flirting game, while Tinder's more of a flirting game. It is a numbers game, but there's also a little bit of flirting and a little bit of tact involved.
So as a promoter I'm going up to maybe a hundred, two hundred girls a day and saying, "Hey guys, I work for this nightclub. Do you guys want to check it out?" They say yes or no, and we go from there. There's maybe a little bit more tact than that, but that's pretty much it.
So now here I am on Tinder. I'm messaging all these girls, and I'm not getting the results I want. First, I'm confused because I'm not getting the matches I want. And then I figure out what profile pictures work, like I talk a little bit about in my book. And from there, I realize, "Okay, so now I know what profile pictures work. What's the next step? Let's figure out this matching thing," or, "Let's figure out this messaging thing."
So then I start messaging, and my messaging goes horribly at first. Girls will just drop off, girls will say, "Oh, I know you're a club promoter," all these different issues. But then I finally started hammering it down, and started honing it in, and getting them to go to the club.
And I'm thinking, "Well if I can get them to go to the club, I can probably also get them to meet up with me." And then it went from them going to the club to us going on dates, and even... There's been a few times where instead of them going to the club, they just come to my place, or I've gone to their place.
[Angel Donovan] Okay, cool. So, how long have you been using Tinder now, playing around with it?
[Chris Harders] I thought about that the other day. I started in April of last year, so it's been a little over a year.
[Angel Donovan] Okay, great. And how many girls would you say you matched on it, because you get matched right?
[Chris Harders] Matched? It's been a ton. It's hundreds, maybe several thousand at this point, in terms of matching. I mean it's off and on over that year-and-a-half, because at some point, you know, you use every match in your area, or you've run out of matches in an area.
And then also, life happens. You want to do other things. So Tinder's a great way for me to pass my time when I've got nothing else to do, or I'm sitting on the toilet or something. But I like to go out. I have a lot of fun just gaming and things like that too.
[Angel Donovan] Okay, great. How many dates have you been on with Tinder? How many girls have you actually met up with?
[Chris Harders] Somewhere between forty to fifty probably. Somewhere in there.
[Angel Donovan] And what are the age range of the girls you've met, and the girls you tend to find matched on Tinder?
[Chris Harders] For me I'm 24, 25 when I was messaging girls. The ages of the girls that I was meeting were... The youngest was probably 21. I may have gone out with one eighteen-year-old. And then the oldest was somewhere in her mid-thirties.
[Angel Donovan] Okay. Right, cool. Is that because of your settings, or it's just that that's what's available on Tinder?
[Chris Harders] Well, I always message every girl, and I always go at least for the number with pretty much every girl I'm on Tinder with, no matter what she look like, just to keep the muscle strong in terms of messaging. But then, in terms of the girls I actually am interested in seeing, I do have standards.
I'll take a look and think, "Okay, no, I don't actually want to see this girl. It was fun playing the game, and seeing that I can get the number, and making sure I got the pieces of the puzzle right, but I'm not interested in seeing this one."
[Angel Donovan] Right, right. I think when Tinder first started out, it was mostly really young girls, right? Like, say, under 25s. But I've seen there's all age ranges now. I was in San Diego a little while ago, and it was all over. So is that something you've seen? There's pretty much a very broad age range now on Tinder?
[Chris Harders] Oh, it's definitely broadened significantly, and that's got its pros and cons. The cool thing is there's a lot more girls on it. The opposite side is the young girls were a lot of fun because they're just ready to go out and things, whereas some of these older ones... There's a little bit more messaging that needs to happen, a little bit more tact, a little bit more comfort that needs to be built.
And a lot of them are using this app more as an entertainment app now than as a necessarily straight hookup app, which also makes the game just a little bit more fun, a little bit more tactful with how you have to be about it.
[Angel Donovan] Yeah. So the whole thing about Tinder is it's been advertised as casual dating that women are okay with. That's kind of supposed to be the thing behind its success and everything. Is that what fits with all of the people you met? Is that what all of the girls were expecting? It's a casual thing? Or have you had other situations?
[Chris Harders] There are some girls now, and I think that's part of the ones that are older, that think it's going to be more than just a casual dating app. But for the most part, people know what's up. They know it is just a fun thing to do, and it's an app that just connects with your Facebook and makes it all so simple for girls to sign up. You just click enter, and agree to let Facebook sync up with Tinder, and now they're on. So it's very simple, very straightforward, and I think most people know that.
I have dealt with girls that are saying, "Oh, you know, how serious are you going to be about this? I want you to know I'm not looking for a hookup. I want a relationship," and I'm thinking, "That's not what this app is."
[Angel Donovan] Well if you... Like, I've seen a lot lately... There's a lot of girls on there, they actually explicitly say in their profiles that they're not looking for hookups, and all of that. What do you think of that?
[Chris Harders] That's the same thing as a girl saying "You know, I don't do this all the time. I'm not that kind of girl. I don't have sex on the first date." It's just the girl making herself not out to be a slut.
I've seen the other side of things, and I've seen the girls' profiles, where I've been on a girl's profile and seen how many guys message her. She kind of has to say that, because there are so many guys that are just so straightforward, like, "Hey, you should come over to my hotel room. Let's have sex." Just very crass.
For any guys that are thinking, "Oh, I don't want her to think of me that way," you're probably not that guy. It's for the guy that's literally, "Hey, I want to send you a dick pic. Give me your number," things like that.
[Angel Donovan] Yeah, that's a good point. It's pretty much a defense mechanism. It's like, "I don't want to get all this attention," this kind of attention.
When I was reading through your book, I noticed that... Just before we get into the Tinder stuff... That you did something which was pretty good when you approach this whole thing. You looked at the context of the girls and their situation. How they're using Tinder, why they're using it. And this is really something very important to do in the whole of dating, sex and relationships, is really to understand where she's coming from.
It's an important skillset to develop, and I thought it was great that in your book it really comes out that you tackle the whole thing from this context. Could you talk a little bit about, did that come naturally to you? And do you use that in other situations with women? Or is it something specifically you learned just with Tinder?
You've talked a lot in your book about how the context is that girls are just on it for entertainment and fun. You talk a little about the texting language and why that works. There's a whole bunch of stuff which is extremely contextual because, if you meet the girl in another situation, say, on an online dating site like chemistry.com, which is a lot more serious, or if you meet her in a club, or in the street or something, it's not the same way you're going to be talking to her. Or even if you're texting to her and you met her somewhere else before.
So, you kind of laid the land, and you set up this context for the interaction on Tinder. Which is why your advice, like I said before, is really good, because it is very specific. And it's very practical because it fits so well with the actual context of the girl at the time.
[Chris Harders] I don't do any serious, serious dating where we're doing chemistry.com, or something where I'm trying to do anything super long-term. In terms of my life and what I'm doing, same-night lays, maybe a couple of dates here and there, and then we go back to my place.
The texting that I use in Tinder, I use off of Tinder in a similar way. Not quite exactly the same. I'll do a few, maybe less, typos in terms of... I talk about girl talk, where maybe instead of saying, "Nice," I say, "Niice," by putting in two Is instead of one.
I'll do a little less of that, based on the girl that I'm talking to in normal life. But for the most part, this is the way I text. Because what I realize is any time I try to categorize things too much, in terms of, like, "Oh no, this is this type of girl, this is that type of girl. I can't send the girl this message because of the way I met her," it screws things up for me.
Unless I met a girl and got her number under a completely different circumstance, in terms of I got her number for a business relationship, or something different than purely romance, purely us being light and playful with each other, I'm going to be light and playful for the majority of my texting. If she does send me something serious, and it's not off Tinder... If her mother died, and she let me know about that, obviously I'm not going to be light and playful. I'm going to calibrate.
But for the most part, when I'm number-closing girls and meeting them, my goal is to keep things very light and playful until we meet up in person, and then go from there.
This I've also used on OkCupid with a lot of results. I've helped a lot of wings meet up with girls in dates in that sense too. It works on most not-so-serious apps, or not-so-serious dating sites, and I would argue it still does work on some of the more serious ones.
I'm not going to get into a long exchange though with a female, so if she's sending a long... Like, let's say we're on match.com, and she's sending, you know, "Hey, here's all my criteria. Here's my life story. Here's my baggage. Do you fit what I've got?" I'm not going to respond to that. That's just too much, in terms of the baggage. She wouldn't be a good fit for me right now. And certainly my text game wouldn't be a good fit for her.
In terms of the language though, I believe every woman is light and playful and wants to have that banter and that exchange. So, I think it is always applicable.
[Angel Donovan] Right, even if you get an older, more professional woman. Say she's in her forties, and she's got a serious corporate job. I think guys are surprised that they can text in a very fun and light way and, you know, she'll immediately change her demeanor, and she'll respond to that really well.
So when it comes to Tinder, getting more into the details of this, how is it different to other standard online dating? OkCupid, match.com... We've spoken about chemistry.com and stuff, which are the more serious sites. How do you look at it? Where do you see it differs, or really do you think it's pretty much the same as OkCupid? What's different for you about it?
[Chris Harders] Oh it's definitely not. The biggest difference is that it's an app, and it's only an app. And girls go on it, guys go on it. Either they're horny or they're bored. Girls go on it specifically because they're either bored, or just looking to have fun.
There are a small amount of girls that are there strictly to hook up, but that's certainly not the majority. Most of these girls are thinking, "Well I don't want to play Angry Birds. I don't want to play whatever other apps are out there right now, so I'll go on Tinder."
For a girl, it's a relationship app where it's really interactive, because she gets to message all these different guys. She gets to fantasize about which guys she wants to be with, which guys she wants to go on a date with. It's really a perfect app for a girl.
So Tinder sets itself apart because it is just the app, and because of that addictive nature, and also people don't see all the times they get rejected, because Tinder only lets you message if you already like each other.
So it doesn't hurt people as much, it doesn't sting so much, if a guy doesn't match up with them. And that's why I think Tinder's a lot better for most people than Plenty of Fish, or any of these other more casual dating sites.
[Angel Donovan] Right, right. And even though Plenty of Fish, OkCupid, they're sort of positioned as the more casual places, a lot of people on there still are relatively... They're not really serious, but they're still a bit serious.
You brought up an important point on Tinder, I think. There's a lot of curious people. There's people trying it out. There's people just playing around with it for entertainment, passing some time. So in a sense, it's a lot less like online dating, and it's just kind of this entertainment slash online dating app. So it's a bit more, like...
[Chris Harders] Right. I joke in my book a little bit about Tinder having an identity crisis, because I don't think people actually know what it is, because of the way they've structured it. They're saying it's kind of a dating app, it's kind of casual.
You watch how girls use it, and I've been at parties where I'm watching girls swiping through Tinder, and then they have a guy saying, "Hey let's meet up," and these girls are thinking, "Why would I meet up with him? I met him on Tinder, I'm not going to meet up with this guy. I don't know him." You know, here I'm thinking, "Why are you on this app?" And everyone's got their own reason, so it's funny.
[Angel Donovan] It's kind of like Hot or Not? You remember that site? I think it's still around?
[Chris Harders] Right, right.
[Angel Donovan] Yeah, that's kind of what they're doing. They're just kind of swiping left and right, "Like. Don't like," that's the entertainment aspect of it. So you're right, I think there's a whole bunch of girls, maybe guys, probably less guys, who're just kind of like, "This is a bit of entertainment. I'm not too serious about it."
[Chris Harders] Right.
[Angel Donovan] Okay. What kind of response rates do you get from a first message? You get a match, and you send a first message. What should you be expecting in terms of a response back for that?
[Chris Harders] Using the strategies I talk about, I think you're going to get between ten to fifteen percent response rate back. That might be a little bit low. Let's say fifteen to twenty percent response rate back, if you're sending...
I list a few different messages that I send in the book. There's plenty others that I send. I've had higher response rates that have more drop-off afterwards, but these are the ones that, once I get that first response, then they have about a thirty to fifty percent chance of converting into an actual date.
So, that initial message is always going to be a little bit difficult. I mean, you never know. Is this a one-off, that she's using the app? Did she meet a guy? Did she get busy? Did she lose you in the queue of guys she has? So that first message is a little bit difficult to get through. After she responds to the first one, that's where the game starts really going.
So I always want the guys to have a good first message. Copy my message, I really don't care. Just get that first message through. Have her respond, and that's when you can really start playing the game.
[Angel Donovan] Alright, so let's get into the practical details of it. What's the first thing to get started? You know, the guy's just downloaded the app. What's going to be the most important thing he needs to do to get started?
[Chris Harders] First thing that matters is their profile picture. First thing that they need to understand is the light, playful idea of Tinder, and they need to have fun with it.
The way I got good with Tinder, aside from everything else, was I was on it a lot, and when I wasn't getting results, I thought, "Well how ridiculous can I get?" And then I started getting some more results, and then I thought, "Well how much more ridiculous?" And then I started tailoring it back until I figured out what worked.
So, first thing you need to know is it's fun, and a lot of guys, when you look at their pictures that they have on Tinder, you're thinking, "Dude, what are you doing?" They'll have pictures that just completely disqualify them right from the start, in terms of...
I mean, you've been in the dating community for a while, so you know, just basic attraction. Ways you should hold yourself in terms of attraction. Having a clean look to you. If you have facial hair, at least make it look like you're maintaining it. Have good camera angles. Don't make yourself have a double chin.
But in terms of these first pictures, I want you to be telling a story about you, rather than just, "Here's a picture of me and a camera. Here's a professional picture of me with airbrushing, as a headshot that I did for an acting thing."
Instead of that, what girls want on this app is more of a candid... They want candid pictures, they want fun pictures. They want to see different experiences you're having, and then see if that makes sense for them in their life. And the way you can arbitrage it so that it works, or so that most girls will want to be with you, is by just having a lot of pictures telling a lot of different stories.
So one if one story doesn't hit her, the next one does. So the first picture that I tell guys to put up is fun. It has to be very fun, light. It should be some sort of action shot where they're seeing, "Okay, this is a guy that's going to be enjoyable to hang out with, and not just another one of these kind of drab guys that even if he brings me out on a date, I'm not going to have fun."
[Angel Donovan] Yeah. Have you seen... There was one guy who did an experiment. Basically he photoshopped a photo to add some text to it, and he put different messages in the photos. Did you see that, or try that out?
[Chris Harders] I didn't see it. I haven't actually tried that out. I've played with the tagline, which... I think guys overestimate how valuable that tagline is, and they certainly overestimate it if they're putting a lot of details about themselves. That tagline, again, should just be an extension of being light and playful.
For a while I didn't even realize the tagline existed and I was doing fine with matches, and then I saw that tagline and I thought, "Oh, I'll put something in here." And then I put the wrong thing in, and all of a sudden I'm starting to make less and less matches. And I thought, "Screw this, let me be silly again." So then I put a tagline in that worked really well for me. It was, "My mom called me cool at least twice today... Just sayin'"
And that was my tagline. So now I look a little dorky. I look like I'm bragging about my mom calling me cool. Obviously, from a pure pickup perspective, guys are thinking, "Wait, why would you say that? You're making yourself look like a loser?" Well yeah, but you're being playful, and the girls get that. And as long as the rest of your profile is consistent, and they're thinking, "Okay, this is a fun guy that I might enjoy hanging out with."
[Angel Donovan] So this is what I was talking a little bit about when I was talking about context. We're talking about Tinder as being pretty much an entertainment, a fun kind of thing, right? You're talking about having a fun picture as your profile picture, because they're kind of in that mood.
They're not in a serious mood. They didn't have to step on to the site, they just press a button when they're sitting on the toilet to switch on their Tinder. So it's just messing around, and having a bit of fun.
And then your tagline is the same thing. And on Tinder, basically, it's the picture... I can't even remember if you can see the tagline without actually pressing on someone for some more information.
[Chris Harders] You have to press on the profile, yeah.
[Angel Donovan] Right, so the tagline is nearly, kind of, irrelevant. And I think you made a good point in your book. You said, to guys who're just starting out, just don't even put a tagline.
[Chris Harders] Right.
[Angel Donovan] That's a solid piece of advice, because it really doesn't matter on this app where most people are just swiping pictures because they like what they see. It makes them laugh.
[Chris Harders] Exactly.
[Angel Donovan] Okay. So we did talk about photos a bit in a previous episode, so I don't want to dig so much into that. So what are more unique things... Another thing you said is there is no playing it cool on Tinder.
[Chris Harders] What I mean by playing it cool is, first off, there's some guys that are going to wait for the girl to message them. I've heard guys say that. I've talked to them, and I'm thinking, "Well, that's a quick path to nowhere," because if you look at the number of responses a girl's getting versus a guy, it's completely different. There's no way you can just wait and hope she's going to message you first. That's rarely going to be the case.
In terms of also playing it cool, there's a lot of text advice thrown out there, and a lot of messaging advice thrown out there within the community. And, you know, people will say, "Oh, you should wait this amount of time before messaging. You should wait a day, you should wait a couple of hours," whatever it is. With Tinder, you don't have that amount of time. You don't have that luxury, just because of how quick the app is.
So when I say, "No playing it cool," I mean rather than being, like, "Oh, you know, I don't want her to think I'm needy, or trying too hard." No, you're fine. Just message, and get this message flow going as quickly as possible. Get her phone number, get her off Tinder, get her on a date.
And that's pretty much my strategy. I mean, all this being said, this is coming from the perspective that your strategy while using Tinder is to get the girl on a date.
[Angel Donovan] Well it's kind of funny, because I was looking at Huffington Post... They'd written up some rules for Tinder, and they were like, "Wait, because it's not cool to message straight away," kind of exactly the opposite advice. So what you'd expect from a mainstream...
So the other thing I think you brought up before, or in your book, is that a lot of girls use Tinder for like a day, and then they'll be off it. They don't like it, or whatever. I've certainly had that happen to me a few times, where they'll message me and they'll say, "Hey I'm leaving Tinder, here's my WhatsApp," or whatever, and you're just lucky that you spoke to them. If you wait a day, then she'd be gone before you even spoke to her.
So I think you make an excellent point. Tinder is not for playing any cool, laid-back game. It's just for getting to business, kind of thing.
[Chris Harders] What I want guys to try doing... This is going to add a lot of spam to Tinder... Is create a hot girl profile on Tinder, and just have it sit there for 24 hours. Now if you open that profile after 24 hours, every single time you swipe right, Tinder's going to say, "Hey, you guys are a match," because what Tinder does is it stacks all the matches at the top of the heap.
Which is cool, because that helps you get in quicker contact with people. But for a hot girl, if she's trying to sort through guys, if every single time she gets a match, which a hot girl is going to get a lot, she gets notified with that.
It gets very annoying after a while, where you can't just swipe through and play the game. You have to always swipe, and then say, "No, I'll message him later," swipe, "No, I'll message him later." It just gets very kind of cumbersome and annoying, so I don't blame them for not wanting to be on it that long. And again, that's why I say, "Send her a message very quickly. And definitely don't be that guy that doesn't send her a message at all, and wants her to make the first move."
[Angel Donovan] Right, right, totally. So when you get down to talking, say you send your first message, what's your main objective with the first message? Is there anything special you do with that?
[Chris Harders] My main objective is to, again, establish that frame: light, playful; and then get a response. That's all any message should be aimed at, with that first message. Just get her wanting to respond to you. And then, from there, move the whole message string forward.
[Angel Donovan] Okay. So how many messages would you say you send, in total, before you stop using Tinder and you go on a date, or you go to phone or whatever?
[Chris Harders] Are you talking about per-girl, or are you talking about how many messages have I sent overall?
[Angel Donovan] In a conversation. Typically, are you going to send like fifty messages, or?
[Chris Harders] No, no, no. Typically the message to get her number, on your end, is going to be under ten messages, and then once you get her number, the messaging to establish the date is going to be only another three or four over text.
And then after that, if the date happens to be a few days later, you'll have to do a ping text to just remind her who you are, remind her that you're a fun person. And you're going to do about three to six of those over the course of the day before and then the day of the date.
[Angel Donovan] Right, right, so it's all very quick and very straightforward. You get straight down to, "Let's meet up."
[Chris Harders] Right. It all goes back to that concept of it being too easy to lose her on Tinder. So, again, that's why I like the number as soon as possible. It's just too easy to lose her if you try to do a long flirting thing, or you try to get too sexual, too many innuendos.
All she has to do is misinterpret one thing, and then she thinks, "Okay, I don't want to talk to this guy anymore. Who's the next guy in the queue?" So that's why I'm very straightforward, and most of my messaging... If someone looks at my messaging, they're going to think, "Well, he pretty much messages the girls very similarly each time." And that's because it works. And that's kind of what I'm about.
[Angel Donovan] As we were talking about earlier, most girls are on this for more casual style dating than anything serious. So they're not into long, drawn-out messaging, which you might see on some of the other platforms. Maybe like match.com is a little bit more serious, and girls want to know more about you, and typically want to talk to you on the phone.
But with Tinder I guess that's not so when it comes up. It's happened to me a couple of times, they said, "Hey, I'd like to talk to you on the phone before we meet up." Has that happened to you a few times before?
[Chris Harders] Oh yeah. Sometimes they'll actually say it, and then usually you'll get it if they're not saying it, based on the way that they're texting. And that's again why I love having a phone number, is then I can do the quick phone call to build the comfort up enough for them to want to go on a date with me.
I have one girl that after she agrees to the date, she asks for my Facebook. And again, my whole Facebook profile is tailored to pickup, so it's tailored to... Not to pickup in terms of I host all kinds of pickup comments and things, it's tailored to attracting females and showing them a well-rounded personality, so they're interested in meeting me.
And then, similarly, if they do want to do a phone call, usually it's because I'll say something like, "What's your schedule like?" And there's just a little hesitance. They'll say, "I'm not sure yet," or I'll say, "Cool, do you want to grab a drink?" And they'll say, "Hum, I don't know," or, "Hum, yeah I'll have to see how my day's going."
So right when I get that, immediately I text them, or immediately I give them a phone call. And it's a couple minutes of being very light, very playful, as I always am. And then after that it's, "Okay, so, when are you free? We should get a drink." And by then she gets on board, because she's like, "Okay. I've seen this guy's messages. I've heard his voice. He seems reasonable, and now I'll go on a date with him."
[Angel Donovan] Right. So the important thing you're doing there is you're interpreting something as... Some guys might say it's kind of rejection, but you're just looking at as, like, "She's still uncomfortable. She's not comfortable with the situation yet."
"Yet" is a big word. So you say, like, "What's going to help with this situation is if she talks with me on the phone for a couple of minutes, she'll settle down. And then it goes forward from there." So typically, in that situation, is it nearly always okay from that point?
[Chris Harders] Oh yeah. If I get her on the phone, I'm going to go on a date with her. That's not a problem. In terms of the "Yet" I think that's what guys should always remember in pick-up in general is the "Yet." That's why you're in pick-up. You're in there to attract her. You're in there to build comfort. Don't be offended if she's not interested in you yet. She doesn't know you yet.
So that is the "Yet" factor. And if I do get on the phone with her... I screwed up a decent number of times before I really started understanding things. At first I screwed up by... I think she could tell that I was a little annoyed that she didn't trust me. It came across in the way I was speaking. I was being a little bit more curt.
I was kind of shocked, like, "Why isn't she comfortable with me? I'm a good guy. How does she not know I'm a good guy?" But I mean how would she know that I'm a good guy? She doesn't know anything about me really.
So that's the whole point of the conversation. It's just very quick, very much that she gets a feel of who you are. Girls are very feeling-based.
Then she's willing to go to a public location, minimum, in order to meet you. Some girls will be willing to go further, and I've had those phone calls, which are very interesting, to convince her that it's a good idea for me to go over to her place. Usually it's her place rather than my place when I haven't met her yet. Those are a little bit more in-depth. But yeah, it's always the "yet" factor that needs to be established.
[Angel Donovan] Sure. Okay, so pretty much your strategy is basically she's going to reply, and then you're going to exchange really like three or four messages playfully, light?
[Chris Harders] Right.
[Angel Donovan] And then you're going to suggest some kind of date, some activity, something to do together?
[Chris Harders] Right. I'm going to use some calibration to see how she's reacting, and if she's giving me resistance when I ask what's her schedule like, or, "Do you want to grab drinks this week?" or, "Let's grab drinks." If she's giving me any resistance, and I'm on Tinder, I think, "Okay cool. I need to go back to playing the game. Let's say another 'LOL' with some sort of light, playful tease, joke, line," and then we'll dive back into that activity platform in a different way.
I'm never going to go down the same pathway twice either. So if I ask her for drinks, and she says no, I'll ask her if she wants to go hang out somewhere. But I'm never going to say drinks again. Even if we're going to go get drinks, then I'll say, "Let's meet up at the bar," I'm not going to say the exact same message, because I've already got a negative feedback to that message, and if she sees that message again, she's going to think, "I already told this guy no about this. Was I about to go on a date with this guy? I must be crazy. He's just too persistent about this drink thing."
And the other thing is then maybe she's nervous, like, "Is he just trying to get me drunk? Is that his deal?" That's not your deal, you just want to get her in a social situation, and most people enjoy going out to have a drink with somebody that they're just meeting.
So there's a lot of that, just trying to figure out where she's coming from, and calibrating. But yeah, it's very straightforward. For the most part it's let's have a few quick texts back and forth, let's have me suggest meeting up, and then I'm going to say, "Hey, I'm not on Tinder that much. What's your number?" And then I get her number, and then I text her immediately, and then we go from there.
[Angel Donovan] Yeah. So you said something about... I think this is pretty important too... Apart from the fact that she might disappear from Tinder, or lose Tinder or whatever, what other reason is there for getting her phone number?
[Chris Harders] There's that reason. There's other ones that I've played with, that one just hits so well pretty much every time. And it also does a lot in terms of building comfort with her, because she thinks, "Oh this guy's not on Tinder. He's not a player."
And that has actually helped me a lot in dates too, because a lot of girls will ask the guy, when they first meet them, "How often are you on Tinder? Are you on there all the time? Do you do this all the time?" So by saying that message, it's very disarming.
Other things I've used... I've said, "Hey, Tinder gets annoying." That's okay, but it also shows that I get annoyed, and I get a little reactive. So I've used it, and I've gotten numbers from it, I just don't like it as much. But it is an effective one.
And then another one that I like to use is, I'll say, "Hey, Tinder keeps crashing." That's a great one, because Tinder does crash a lot. They've done some updates, and it's a little bit better, but it still crashes all the time.
So blaming Tinder for the reason you need her number is great, because you're not the creepy guy, you just want to keep a conversation going and Tinder's obviously not doing a good enough job with making that happen.
[Angel Donovan] Yeah. You said a good point about her asking you if you're on Tinder a lot, if you're meeting up with a lot of girls, because I think there's still some stigma to Tinder. I've heard girls... They don't want to tell other girls that they're going on a Tinder date. It's not from all girls, but there are some girls who're still sensitive about it. It's like Tinder's a kind of hooky-uppy kind of thing.
One of the points you made in the book, which I thought was good, is "Get her number," because that takes a relationship off Tinder. It starts disassociating the whole thing with Tinder, and it's more of a... We're talking normally on WhatsApp, or on the phone, or whatever.
[Chris Harders] Yeah exactly. It's funny seeing the different ranges of what girls are comfortable with. One girl's comfortable with me going over to her house immediately. Another girl doesn't even want to have drinks, but she'll have dessert with me, because that's what she's comfortable with. So again it's all about figuring out their comfort range.
But yeah, some girls do feel it's a little taboo still. It's less and less, and certainly the younger ones are less taboo than the older ones. But it's always calibrating to where they're at. So if you go on the date and they're making a big deal about, "Oh I'm not on Tinder too much," then what I'll usually say is something very similar. I'll say, "Yeah, I know. It's kind of funny right? Yeah I don't really do this all the time either."
Which is actually true. I spend a lot more time going out in other ways than I do on Tinder dates. More just because, for me, I enjoy the whole hunt, and going out, and things like that. Though Tinder is a fun side-game for me.
[Angel Donovan] Cool, cool. So, give us a run-down of some of the more different Tinder dates you've had, because you've had quite a few. What's been the strangest Tinder date you've had? Or have you had one? Strangest, funny, weird, whatever?
[Chris Harders] Okay. The weirdest, oddest one, by far... And this is kind of funny, because I used to have guys say, "Oh you're messaging the same one to every girl," the same starting message.
Pretty much what I do to test messages is, I need to test on a wide demographic of girls. So I'll test the exact same message over, and over, and over on girl, after girl, after girl. And it helps to not look at their profiles. It helps to not pre-judge in any way. Just send the message, see how many responses you get, and see if that's a message you want to keep, or if that's a message you want to get rid of.
So for a while I was messaging every girl, "Hey rockstar." And in one specific case I messaged two girls that, they happened to be sisters. So I get the first sister's number, and then the second one is messaging me. I didn't know that they were sisters at the time. I've got so many girls I'm messaging, I'm really not keeping track of which one's which. But they don't even display last names on Tinder, so it'd be very difficult for me to know.
So I said something about wanting to grab a drink, and she says, "Oh I don't know, seeing as you going to go on a date with my sister." And then I message back immediately. Most guys I think would freak out at that point and say something silly, or try to qualify, say, "Oh no, but I like you more," or, "No, I would never do that," or something. That's not what a girl needs to hear. They just want, again, keeping it light and playful. Just silly.
So what I said instead was something about, "LOL, you should come too!" I said something to that degree. I can't remember the exact message, and I wish I had the thread still.
I delete my Tinder account often so I can re-message a lot of girls, and every time you delete your account, it deletes all your old matches and things like that. So that gives me the freedom to get a completely new slate where I can try out new profile pics, new messages, to really optimize my Tinder experience.
So anyhow, I got rid of that message thread, but that one was great. So I end up actually going on a date with both of them, and that was very, very interesting.
[Angel Donovan] At the same time?
[Chris Harders] At the same time.
[Angel Donovan] That is interesting!
[Chris Harders] So it was just confusing, because I was a year-and-a-half in the game at that point, and I had a threesome before, but I've never had a threesome with sisters. So I was very confused, and the whole thing kind of blew up in my face, because I didn't know how to balance everything the right way.
But it was a very interesting experience, I'm glad I had it. Yeah, it was the most interesting experience I've had on Tinder.
[Angel Donovan] That sounds like a pretty unique experience!
[Chris Harders] Yeah it was fun.
[Angel Donovan] Right.
[Chris Harders] Definitely fun.
[Angel Donovan] So how about the worst one? Have you had a bad experience on Tinder?
[Chris Harders] I haven't had any horrible experiences. I mean, I set them up pretty well, where they're going to be at a bar. I've definitely had a girl or two that didn't look the way that... She took very good pictures of herself, I guess, and she didn't look the way that she wanted to look.
So those are very interesting dates, because I don't know how to end them. I don't want to be a dick and say, "Hey listen, you're not attractive. I can't do this." So I did spend a date with her, and I got to know her. She was a nice girl. Obviously not a girl that I'm going to keep seeing.
That's pretty much the worst date I've had on Tinder. They're all pretty good and fun because of the way they're set up.
[Angel Donovan] Tinder's got this potential for more adventure at the moment. I don't know the way you feel about it... Because it's more entertainment, it's more edgy. I guess the attitude towards it is kind of more open.
I had one girl, she flew from the city she was in... Because Tinder maps you. I don't know how this miles thing works, but sometimes it doesn't seem to work properly. So, I've had girls on there which definitely are further away than it says they are. So it matched me up with someone in a city, she found out, and she decided to fly over for the weekend, and she booked a hotel and everything.
I think you get a bit more of an adventure as well to the whole thing, than traditional online dating, I've seen. That's not the only interesting story I had from Tinder.
So what about you, what do you think? I think girls are just a bit more open and adventurous on it.
[Chris Harders] Oh they eat it up. There's a lot that I'm playing with right now with roleplaying. As soon as I have that done, I'll put it in my book and just send it out to anyone who's already bought it. I'll send them a new version of it.
But I've been playing a lot with new messages, in terms of setting it up. More of a special agent sort of thing, where I'm the special agent giving her instructions. And they have a blast with that, because it's something different. It's fun.
I've given girls tasks that they have to do, and they've had to send me a mustache, a finger mustache of themselves. And I'm like, "Okay, are you ready for task number two?" So there's different roles that you can play. A lot of it ends up meaning that you need to get their phone number so you can have them send pictures, or you can have them give you a call for the next instructions. But again, then it culminates and you go on a date with her. That's one of the things that I'm playing with a lot.
But roleplaying, girls love. I had one of my students, he was messaging a girl on Tinder. She was being receptive, but not as receptive as I wanted her to be for his sake. And so he had already gotten her number, but she was showing discomfort in terms of not being willing to officially set up a date, though she agreed to meet up.
She happened to be watching Netflix, and specifically CSI, so I had him send, "Well, are you a good crime solver?" and she says, "Yeah, I'm a very good crime solver." And he says, "Well I need you to help me solve this crime," and she says, "Okay I'm ready."
So then I had him give her a call, and then basically the crime was that he's got someone that's breaking the law by watching Netflix rather than going on a fun, wild date with him. And then she laughed, and thought it was funny. She got to experience more of his personality, and then that got him the date.
So girls want to have fun. I guess I'll tell you one more story. This was a really interesting one. I like to kind of throw a lot of stuff at the wall and see what happens.
So me and a wing were planning on going out. So before we went out, I also happened to be playing on Tinder. I didn't know I was going to go out that night, but he hits me up, so I say, "Okay cool, let's go out instead."
So I have the girl meet up with me at the place, and then we go out, and now I've got a girl that I can either do something with, or she's pre-selection for other girls. So she ended up kind of doing both, because what happened was he and I pulled two girls, and then my girl back to the place. So now he's with a girl, I'm with two girls, and then I had to, like, do a lot of juggling.
What ended up happening was the girl that I pulled from the bar, she just got a little too drunk and fell asleep on the couch. But now I had this other Tinder girl, who I was continuing to play along with, and continuing to maintain her interest me, though she was definitely annoyed that I was with another girl. And then I ended up sleeping with her. So there's a fun way of covering your losses, or something like that.
[Angel Donovan] Right, right. Hedging.
[Chris Harders] Hedging. Hedging your wins, or whatever it is.
[Angel Donovan] It's like an option.
[Chris Harders] Yeah, it was fun. I was flying pretty close to the sun there. I could have... The whole thing could have blown up, but it worked, and it was a lot of fun because I always like to throw a little bit of drama in there if possible.
[Angel Donovan] You had a couple of nice things in your book about grammar. Quite a bit actually. It's like you kind of codified the language, and put in formulas there, which I thought was great for guys who were just getting started.
They always have difficulty formulating a message when the advice is a little bit more abstract and doesn't tell you exactly what to say. Could you give us one of your favorite grammatical rules, and how you use it?
[Chris Harders] Sure. The things that are the most important... First off, "LOL" you can almost not use enough. I don't think enough guys appreciate how valuable "LOL" is. It sets everything up. It's just letting her know what kind of person you are. I think when guys get LOLs from other guys they think, "Oh that's kind of silly. That's dumb. Why would a guy send that?" From a girl perspective, they think it's fun. They like it.
Another thing that I do in every message, is I do a space and then a question mark. I either do a dot dot dot, or a space and then a question mark, in order to let her know, "Hey, it's your turn to respond." The space and then the question mark, that just happened by...
My mentor Luke Krogh, he was dating a girl at the time that showed him that every time she messages somebody with this space and a question mark, they respond at a higher rate than if there's no space. So I don't really know what the reason is for that, but that always prompts a response, more often.
And then on top of that, even with commands... So even if I'm saying, like, "Let's grab a drink," I'm going to put a space and then a question mark after. Because the problem is girls don't necessarily know it's their turn to respond, because they see a statement, but not saying, "Hey, are you okay with that?"
So even though some people are like, "Well you didn't ask a question," I still do the question mark to let her know, "Hey, I am asking you a question, even if it's a statement that I led it with."
[Angel Donovan] Right, to kind of tell her you want a response?
[Chris Harders] Right, exactly. It's to prompt a response.
So I like using LOL. I like the question mark. I like always prompting them with a response. And then I think that if guys were to look at the way the spellings that I do... I just started spelling the way I was talking, and the way I was talking was very fun, light and playful.
And so, she says, "Oh, I just got back from work," or, "I'm at work right now." So a normal guy wouldn't really know what to respond... Well, I don't know what a normal guy would think anymore, but a lot of guys would probably think... I know what I used to think would be, "Oh she's at work, I don't want to bother her," or, "hat if I ask her about work? She's probably not going to be too excited about that."
So instead what I say is, "Thaat's exciiting..." And I'll put in [Chris spells it out], "Thaat's exciiting" dot dot dot, and then I'll ask, "What are you doing later? What are your plans later? What would you rather be doing?" Some follow-up question that's not work, necessarily, related.
But talking the way you're thinking, and then thinking in a fun way, is what really started helping me get more results. Because you don't always want to say, "That's exciting." That's not what you want her to think. When you spell, "That's exciting," that's how she could read it: "That's exciting," rather than, "Thaat's exciiting..." Because now that's, like, a little more playful, it's a little sarcastic. And that's how I want her to read it, so I started spelling the way I was thinking, and that helped a lot.
[Angel Donovan] Yeah that works nicely. Put your vocal tonality... Kind of express it in the messages.
[Chris Harders] Right. It's very difficult, when you're sending messages... It's difficult to always make sure there's not going to be a misinterpretation, or a re-interpretation. So I try to minimize that by playing with some of those rules.
[Angel Donovan] Excellent, excellent. Yeah, I thought that was another interesting thing. Okay, rounding off, there's a couple of questions I always ask everyone.
First one is who, not including yourself, would you recommend for really good, high quality advice in this area of your life: dating, sex, relationships?
[Chris Harders] Sure. Obviously my mentor, Luke Krogh. I've seen a lot of guys... I've had the whole immersion program. We've had enough instructors come through where, without a doubt, he's got the most game of anyone I've ever met, and he would be the primary guy I would ever encourage anyone to reach out to.
[Angel Donovan] Great, great. And what would be your top three recommendations to help men get results as fast as possible on Tinder?
[Chris Harders] First off, you need to like everyone. I've seen guys where they go through and... Well first off, profile pics, let's get those done. Let's get those looking sexy. Or, not sexy... when I say "sexy" I mean make them look good, but I don't want guys to misinterpret that as showing a topless pic, or them biting their nail, or biting their finger or something. I don't want you to actually look sexy, I want you to have sexy, attractive pictures.
After that, you need to like every girl on Tinder. Because what guys do is they just waste too much time by trying to actually sort through the girls. So swipe right on every girl until you get through every single girl. And then, if you don't like her, just don't message her. If you do like her, message her.
But that's going to make the whole Tinder experience a lot quicker. What I've seen guys do, is they'll sit there, and they're having fun, which... I don't blame them at first. At first, Tinder is a fun thing. You look through it and you're like, "No, I want her. No, I don't want her," and it's fun.
But after a while, once you start experiencing significantly less matches, or significantly less girls messaging you back than you're used to, then you start understanding, while Tinder...
There is tact to it. There is also a numbers element to it because of drop-off rate, and you having to be at her mercy in terms of, "When is she looking at her phone?" and how high up in the queue are you. So I always tell guys, "Match yourself with every girl. Decide whether you like her or not afterwards, and then message the ones that you want to talk to."
The third thing that I would tell guys is... Like, if they're going to buy my book, it's got great examples in it, but the way I got good with Tinder is by not thinking too hard. Because the harder I thought, the harder I tried to think, "Oh shit, you know, what is she going to think about this? How do I set everything up?" the more mistakes I made.
So what I started doing is, any time I took more than sixty seconds to send a message, I kind of slapped myself in my head for a second. I would completely forget what I was talking about, and then I would re-look at the message and then just send whatever was on my mind. And that started helping me get in the habit of not taking it too seriously.
This is a fun app, and the quicker you can start developing that instinct, rather than freaking out every single time, the quicker it will start working for you.
[Angel Donovan] Great points man, very succinct. Well Chris, thank you for being on the show. It's been great having you.
[Chris Harders] Right, yeah, thanks for having me Angel. I appreciated it.
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DSR Podcast is a weekly podcast where Angel Donovan seeks out and interviews the best experts he can find from bestselling authors, to the most experienced people with extreme dating lifestyles. The interviews were created by Angel Donovan to help you improve yourself as men - by mastering dating, sex and relationships skills and get the dating life you aspire to.
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