Ep. #33 Using Texting to Get Women Out on Dates with Rob Judge

[Angel Donovan]: Hey, this is Angel Donovan with Episode 33 of Dating Skills Podcast. In this interview, we’re talking about texting, and more specifically, how to text women to get them out on dates with you. We’ve got Rob Judge from Date Hotter Girls on the show to talk about it. Rob is a pickup artist who first appeared in 2009 when some infield videos were put online showing him picking up women in New York City. From there he has built his profile with a lot of hard work and some great writing with books like The 4 Elements of Game and Magnetic Messaging, which is all about texting. Rob has been on the show before, way back in Episode 4. So if you like today’s show, go and look that one up.

Hey Rob, it’s great to have you on the show this episode. How are you doing?

[Rob Judge]: I’m doing well. Thanks, Angel.

[Angel Donovan]: And it’s great to see you back on the show because way back in like Episode 4 we had you on the show, so you were right at the beginning of Dating Skills Podcast, basically. So it’s been like 30 episodes since then, so it’s great to have you back on the show and get to talk again.

[Rob Judge]: Very nice, it’s a pleasure to be back on.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I was just talking about how long that was ago. It’s amazing how time flies, how fast it goes. I think that was like back in 2009, 2010, right? So, wow, like three years, and still doing the dating coaching thing and going strong.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, absolutely. You know, a lot has changed, but a lot has also stayed the same.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So today we’re talking about the theme of texting. So this is basically something you’ve been working on for the last year? Is it something around the last year you’ve been focusing on a bit?

[Rob Judge]: Well, it’s funny, because personally I’ve been working on my texting skills for the last about six years since texting got really popular. You know, that's been a personal project of mine, is just to get better at texting. But yeah, in terms of actually putting it out into a system and a product, it’s been just over a year. We actually launched the book March 1st of 2012.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. And so that's the collaboration with Bobby Rio, right?

[Rob Judge]: Yes, yes, Bobby Rio.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. Okay man, well, so one of the things I just wanted to bring up here is like texting, like the whole world of mobiles and everything obviously has been moving very fast, and I know it’s a little bit different in different countries, like I could tell you the countries I’ve been in lately, there are like seven different texting applications going on, and honestly I have like seven of them on my phone because different people use different texting things, and it’s all getting a bit crazy. Is that something you find that you’re advising people on, like which texting app should I be using, or is it just general stuff?

[Rob Judge]: Well, that's a great point, and that's something we do address in the appendix of the book, is, you know, because even in the US there's WhatsApp, there's even Facebook Messenger, there's instant messenger, I don’t know. Do people still use instant messenger? I don’t even know. But definitely there are a lot of these different platforms for texting, and we do have some advice. You want to tweak a little bit based on what platform you’re using because, say on like Facebook Messenger, say you go on Facebook Messenger, which first of all I don’t advise guys to talk to girls on Facebook Messenger. I think it’s a bad idea. But some guys like that stuff, like the instant messenger stuff, like to be on gchat or whatever, and talk to girls.

And one thing you have to realize though when you’re on a texting application like that rather than the straight phone texting, she’s having several conversations at once, how you’re messaging her, whereas when you’re sending a text message from your phone it’s a little more personalized, so you can assume that realistically she’s probably only talking to you. Maybe she’s talking to one other person but she’s not talking to like several people like she would be if she was on some kind of instant messaging platform.

And since so much of texting involves capturing a woman’s full attention, you really need her full attention to just kind of progress the interaction. You have to be cognizant of that and that's why I said earlier I don’t advise guys to be on texting platforms where she might be talking to multiple people at once.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right, totally. Well, this is a nice segue into a question I wanted to ask you about the whole texting thing really. Is this just a detail or this is like a really important skill that guys have to get handled, right? So for guys getting into dating and stuff, is this something they should focus on and think about kind of early on or is it a detail they should leave for a bit later?

[Rob Judge]: Well, it’s funny because texting embodies a lot of the lessons that you need to learn in a pickup, on a date, whatever, because texting essentially is… at its core, texting is simply learning how to communicate well with women and learning how to display your personality in an attractive way. But what’s so great about texting and why I advise guys who are starting out to work on their texting skills is because it’s not as fast-paced as when a girl’s in front of you. Because every guy knows that when you’re reading a book on talking to women or picking up women, everything sounds like it makes sense and it’s like, “Oh, I can do this.” And then also, you put an attractive girl in front of that guy, and suddenly it seems like things are coming at him at a hundred miles per hour and it’s very scary and it’s very daunting.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Rob Judge]: So a lot of the times, you know, that's why the learning process is slow in this learning this. It’s not so much because the material is so hard. It’s because… so there's much emotion and so much nervousness and anxiety when…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Rob Judge]: Unfortunately, that's just the way it is. But the great thing about texting is a lot of that anxiety and nervousness is removed because you can text a girl and you know it’s okay if you wait 15, 20, an hour to respond to that girl. That's totally fine. So you can really put a lot of conscious thought into what you’re saying, consider what she’s saying, and it’s not as like fast-paced as when you have a girl actually in front of you.

[Angel Donovan]: You know, that's an excellent point that I hadn’t actually thought of, but I can tell you like, basically, when I first read this stuff, the first time I ever did anything was on some messaging application, right? I think it was AOL Messenger or whatever was going on at the time.

[Rob Judge]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: And yeah, that's totally right, that it makes it so much easier because you can think a little bit. I think I’d read David DeAngelo’s original cocky and funny kind of stuff, and so I was practicing a bit of that, and it was so much easier because it’s like I could wait a little bit and it was a lot of fun that way as well. So yeah, thanks for bringing it up. It’s really about, you know, you can do this removing the anxiety that surrounds the live talk, the face-to-face chat.

[Rob Judge]: Exactly, and that way you could really practice the stuff that you’re learning, whether you take my advice or even the advice of some other dating instructor. If you’re reading someone’s advice you’re like, “Oh, this sounds like a cool thing. I want to try this style of communication,” you don’t have to worry about, “Oh my God, I have to do it in this nerve-wracking situation.” You can kind of do it from the comfort of sitting in a…

What I used to do when I was really learning this stuff was I used to work in an office and I would sit at my cubicle texting girls, and it was great. So I could be texting girls all day and practicing communicating with them and it’s almost like I’m getting paid to do it because I’m at my job or, you know, on the bus or on the train, and it’s like you can really maximize your time and kind of keep yourself immersed in that classroom of learning to become better with women.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right, and that's important too, just the frequency of getting your head around this stuff. If you’re thinking about it like twice, three times a day instead of going out once a week, then it’s going to make a lot of difference, right?

[Rob Judge]: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, okay. So that's basically kind of like a training wheels kind of thing, like texting is a good thing to do when… texting girls is a good thing to do when you’re learning because it takes the pressure off and it means you can do it a lot as well and practice a lot. What other things would you say about like the importance of texting? So I met a girl, I got her number, how important is texting?

[Rob Judge]: Well, that's also where it’s crucial as well. The other side of the coin is there is a utility to text that can’t be underestimated enough… or overestimated enough, because the problem that most guys run into is that like, okay, they go out, they get decently good at meeting women, at getting girls’ phone numbers, even girls in their social circle, girls that they sort of know from school, whatever, but the thing is, if those numbers aren’t translating into dates, then you’re not going to be doing that well with women. Learning how to take a phone number and transition that into a date is such a vital skill that so many guys just kind of gloss over because like, “Oh, it’s stupid. It’s texting.”

A lot of guys like to get into the sexual escalation stuff, they like to get into the closing, which is great, and those are essential skills as well, but you can’t gloss over the texting, because then you’re going to have a bottleneck where you’re really good at flirting with girls, interacting with them, getting their phone numbers, but then you’re just kind of spinning your wheels if you’re not getting those girls out on dates.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. So is texting essential to that? I mean, do we have to text or can we call? What are kind of your ideas on that?

[Rob Judge]: That's a great question. And when I first started… keep in mind, when I got into this whole dating advice stuff, this was back when texting was… people were texting but it wasn’t as popular as it is today. When I started going out and doing this, it was pre-smartphone era. It was before the iPhone, and I think the iPhone changed so much of the way people communicate. And a lot of people don’t consider this but smartphones really changed the game in a lot of ways and especially changed this aspect of the game, the game of dating.

So when I first started, I called girls a lot. I thought that it was a more manly thing to do. I was like, you know, anyone can hide behind a phone and send up a text but I’m going to be the guy who calls girls. And I thought I was being this chivalrous brave dude by calling these girls, leaving them voicemail, trying to get them on the phone, and it really didn’t work that well for me. And then, when I started switching over to text, I started getting a much, much better response.

So the first sort of rule of texting is to embrace the medium. A lot of guys like to get up on their alpha high horse and be like, “Oh no, you have to call girls. Texting is for pussies.” Texting may be for pussies, but it’s also for guys who get pussy, you know? So that's something that you really have to wrap your brain around, is that doing it the hard way in this instance isn’t necessarily going to get you better results. So, realistically, texting, just because, you know, from my results, from all my friends’ results, from any guy who I ever talked to, texting is just the better way to go about setting up dates with women.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so we could talk about that a little bit because I know that you actually set up the dates with texting because I saw that in your book.

[Rob Judge]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: But what I wanted to talk about now is, I mean you just brought up phone call and being the man. And I think it goes back to what you’re saying about training and taking the anxiety off. I think a lot of people have phone call anxiety. I don’t know if that's the term…

[Rob Judge]: [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: … people use but it sounds pretty major to me. I used to get it. I used to like have a coffee before I called the girl to get my, I don’t know, to get my strength up for the call or whatever, my energy up.

[Rob Judge]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: So, with texting, you don’t have to do that. So that's great. But are there situations where it’s better to call?

[Rob Judge]: Yes, obviously there are going to be situations where it is better to call. Very rarely, but there are situations. One example I can think off the top of my head is say you had plans with a girl, say you set up a date over text, and suddenly at the last minute she’s like, “Oh, I’m tired tonight. I don’t want to come out.” That's when you should pick up the phone and actually call her because that's when you know she’s on the fence. She’s sitting on the fence and she’s like, “Oh, should I meet up with this guy? Should I not meet up with this guy?” And maybe if you get her on the phone something you say might knock her over the fence where it’s like, “Oh, okay, this guy is cool. He is funny. I’ll go out with him.”

The reason that I tell guys like really to avoid calling unless you absolutely have to is because when you call a girl, it’s like walking this tightrope where if you just say one stupid thing, and we’ve all done it, I certainly am guilty of this, where I’ll say one stupid thing and suddenly the girl says, “Oh, you know what, look, let me call you back in a minute,” and she hangs up and you never hear from her again.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Rob Judge]: And the thing about text is that you could avoid that because you’re putting conscious thought into what you’re texting and you’re really considering it, because again, like a phone call is… again, it’s more similar to that face-to-face interaction where things are moving very fast and you have to be very quick on your toes. And even for a guy who’s pretty much good, that could be very, very difficult. I’d even had situations where I called the girl and we just had like a bad connection and it was just… you know when you have a bad connection with someone? It’s just like it kind of infuriates you.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Rob Judge]: And I’ve had girls just hang up, “Oh, I’ll call you back,” and then they hang up and boom, it’s like game over.

[Angel Donovan]: Totally. Yeah, it’s just terrible in that situation because it takes the energy out of the phone call. It just makes it that much harder. If she can’t hear you properly, that really kills the vibe.

[Rob Judge]: Oh, it really does.

[Angel Donovan]: I mean, the best thing is to get out of the phone call. It’s just like, “Hey, this is a bad phone call. Let's get the hell out here and we’ll call each other another time.”

[Rob Judge]: Hmm. Definitely. But you know… and then again, she might… what I’ve found is girls might start reading into that. They might start being like, “Oh, he's sounding a little nervous. This isn’t the guy I remember meeting.” There are so many variables.

One thing I had a friend say to me once, and I really use this a lot to guide the way I interact with women, is that before you sleep with a woman for the first time, she’s kind of looking for reasons to disqualify you. It’s funny, like guys, we’re always looking for reasons to qualify girls. Ever hear a guy say like, “Oh, she’s not the hottest girl but she has a great set of tits,” or “She’s not the hottest girl but she has a great personality.” Like we’re always adding “but she has this” because we want to qualify a girl because we’re always trying to get our numbers up for sex and we’re trying to like have sex with more girls, where girls… girls are the exact opposite. They’re always trying to keep their numbers down.

So a lot of the times a girl might be like, “Yeah, he's cute but… ” And we’ve all had girls say that. If you have any female friends… I’ve had my female friends say, “Oh, he's really cute. He took me out on this nice date, but he was wearing green socks and that's, oh my God… ” you know? So it’s really funny the difference between men and women.

So you have to keep in mind, most women are looking for reasons to disqualify you from sex, so you don’t want to introduce any kind of variables that might lead to that. You want to take the path of least resistance, the path that's going to… where you have the smallest margin of error…

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Rob Judge]: … and to me that path is, [laughs] for better or worse, that's texting.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. I’d say that is like… maybe my experience abroad—I’ve lived most of my life abroad the last 10 years—might have like put a different shade on this. Like one of the situations where I choose to call a girl is where I think there's a misinterpretation like of the text.

[Rob Judge]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: So I guess like on a phone call I feel sometimes you have more control because you can hear how she’s responding to you. She’ll make sounds, she’s like, “Huh?” You can hear that tone in her voice. But sometimes on text it’s a little bit more difficult, especially if she just doesn’t respond to one of your texts and you can’t be sure exactly what happened there.

So one of the situations where I would just pick up the phone and call is basically where I think maybe she could have misinterpreted that last text. I’m not exactly sure where her head is right now, so I’ll just call and I’ll find out.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, like I said, the idea of using it for damage control I think is a good use of a phone call. So I agree with you in that regard. But ideally, especially for a newer guy, I think keeping it off the phone as much as you possibly can… like to me the phone call’s like the last resort. A phone call is like… for me it’s like when texting isn’t working or something happened and I have no other choice but to pick up the phone and call her.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Rob Judge]: That's the only time I’ll call. So I agree with you that in a damage control situation or in a situation where she might be flaking or where… and sometimes girls just will say to you on text, “Hey, why don’t you ever call me,” or “Why don’t you give me a call?” and in that situation, sometimes girls do have this image in their head that they want a guy to call them. So I guess there is like an asterisk to the rule “always text a girl” and there are situations where you can break that rule, but I think in 95% of situations texting is your best bet.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. And you know, just to pull up what you said back there, there's also a situation where the girl wants to feel a bit more comfortable, and hearing your voice can do that. If she met you briefly before and you’ve been texting a bit, my experience is like sometimes they still want to hear your voice before they meet up because they’re like, “Mm, this guy, I kind of remember him and we’ve been texting and it’s cool, but what does he sound like? I can’t remember.”

[Rob Judge]: Yeah. Well, you know what’s funny, is that if you get pretty good at texting, I’ve actually… I’ve done this a couple of times where I’ll have a girl’s number that I met like over a year ago, I’ve met girls in Vegas and like just randomly had been in like the city that they live in or whatever, and I’ll start texting girls like a year later, and only because I think I’m pretty good at communicating my personality through text and like my humor kind of comes through on text, that even if these girls hadn’t seen me in like a year or even if we had a brief interaction where they really didn’t get to know that much of me, if you are pretty good at communicating your personality through text, these girls will still meet up with you without ever having to call them.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Rob Judge]: So sometimes just learning how to communicate your personality, which is the whole sort of purpose of magnetic messaging, is really getting guys to express themselves and express who they are and express their masculinity through text. If you could do that well, you can get out girls that even feel like, “Oh, maybe… like I don’t really know this guy that well or I forget who this guy is.”

[Angel Donovan]: That's great to hear and we’ll get into some examples of that in a minute because it’s great stuff.

[Rob Judge]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: One last thing. So as mobiles have been changing and all these applications have been coming out, there is this aspect also I think where it’s kind of like socially a bit too much to call. Have you ever come across this situation? It’s like it’s a bit too try-hard because texting is so easy these days…

[Rob Judge]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: … and most friends these days they text, they can’t be bothered to call, right? Because it’s just that much easier, because you don’t know what the other person’s doing but if you text you’re just surely going to get it and they’re going to respond to you. So what do you think about that? Sometimes, depending on the situation, it’s a little bit too much to call so it’s easier to text and it’s going to go… you’re not going to seem so try-hard or, like she’s going to be a little bit weirded out maybe if you call. What do you think?

[Rob Judge]: Oh, I couldn’t agree with that more. And even… I think the idea of the voicemail is sort of dead at this point too…

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Rob Judge]: … because like even when your friends call you, no one listens to voicemails anymore. In fact, I’m looking at my phone right now, I have 22 voicemails I have not listened to because I just figure, “Oh, if it’s important they’ll text me.” And that's the thing. If you leave a voicemail for a girl, that sounds like the kiss of death because not only… she probably won’t even listen to it, and if she does, is that recorded? She can play that back for her friends. I mean, I have seen some really bad situations and I’m sure you’ve seen it too on the Internet, where they’ll actually post really embarrassing voicemails that people have left. “Oh hey, this is Tom from the bar, blah, blah, blah.” So you don’t want to be that guy. So, realistically, text alleviates you all that headache of calling, making voicemails or whatever, just being awkward about it.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. Yeah, totally. So is texting the same with all girls? Are all girls the same no matter their backgrounds, where they come from, their age? Are they all going to be responsive? Should you put the emphasis on texting with all girls? What do you think?

[Rob Judge]: Okay, that is a good question. The principles behind effective texting are universal for all girls. It’s like attraction. It’s like anything else that you do to attract a woman that they’re just universal things that if you kind of just adhere to like the process and that is what we lay out magnetic messaging we’ll talk about in this interview, if you adhere to that process, it’ll work. It just works. And like I said, and I’ve gotten testimonials from guys all over the world that using the system just works.

What is not universal, however, is taking the text that I recommend using and using it on every girl because you are absolutely right, there are certain girls that have a different sense of humor, that have different cultural values, that just have a different view of the world, so you absolutely should not use the same texts, like cut and paste the same texts for every single girl. However, you should apply the same principles to every single girl.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. So you still have to be aware of who the girl is and be calibrated, basically.

[Rob Judge]: Yes. Oh, absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: So you observe exactly where she’s at, yeah. And I have to say, that's actually more important on texting because, like I was alluding to this earlier, when you’ve got someone on the phone or face-to-face, you can see what’s going on, but when you’re texting, not so much, right? You have to guess more. So if you’re not calibrated, I could see things going a bit messy.

[Rob Judge]: Well, definitely, definitely. I mean, for me, I always like to sort of play it a little safe on the first text and make sure that like what I’m writing is something I know she’s going to find funny. Like one of the things… it’s funny, like whenever I used to take girls’ numbers, I used to say stuff like, “Oh,” I used to be like… say it was like a day game. Say I met a girl in the daytime, and I was like, “Oh, let's grab a cup of coffee sometime.” The girl said, “Oh yes, sounds great.” I said, “Okay, cool. I’m going to take you to this little hole in the wall place. It’s a little mom and pop coffee shop. It’s called Starbucks. You’re going to love it.”

And most of the time the girl has a good sense of humor. She’ll start laughing a little bit. She’ll giggle, whatever.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Judge]: And then, if she found that funny when I said it, that's the type of humor I’m going to use when I follow up. Like you don’t want to… one thing guys don’t really consider is that like if they had a good interaction with a girl, she was laughing, she was enjoying the interaction, you sort of have this blueprint of person to humor and what she finds funny and what she responds to emotionally, and you should be hitting those points when you’re texting her. You shouldn’t now all of a sudden because you have her number, you’re texting her, turn around and become a completely different guy and start using all different types of humor or jokes or whatever. It’s like you know the type of humor that this girl responds to. Those are the types of texts that you should be sending her.

[Angel Donovan]: And as you do that, you’re building the relationship, you’re building memories together, and as you say, if there’s a weird disconnect that's not going to work. So do you give people like copy and paste texts, like basically they’re routines but they’re text? Are there any of those you do say are useful or do you really kind of emphasize the personalization in every aspect?

[Rob Judge]: No, we do give copy and paste texts, because there are certain things that, I mean, just because it’s flirting and it’s dating, that are just funny. For instance, like I don’t know, if a girl wrote something like, “Oh, you’re very persistent,” or “Oh, you’re very… ” whatever, the copy and paste text to that is, “Oh, so what is it about persistent guys that you like so much? It’s sort of like that cocky, funny response. It usually gets girls laughing, and just because it’s appropriate, and like realistically you’re going to say that to basically any girl in any culture and they’re probably going to like always giggle about it and think it’s funny.

So there definitely are a lot of copy and paste texts like that that just work because it’s in the context of dating. If a girl understands that you’re interested in her and that you’re flirting, if you say something like that, it’s going to work universally. However, though, I do recommend that guys mostly write their own text, personalize their text to their personality. A lot of times guys send me these text transcripts and it’s kind of weird for me. It’s almost surreal, because it’s almost like me talking to this girl, like they’re copying text that I wrote as examples or whatever, and it’s like they’re just taking the text I wrote and sending it off to these girls. So it’s like I’m reading this, it’s almost like, I don’t know, it’s like out of The Matrix. I feel he's cloning himself and like showing up in like different situations. I’m like, “Holy shit, this guy is just basically being me and like texting this girl,” you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, on this show we’ve talked about like training wheels before routines, so it’s the same concept. And I think… I mean, I do think that some guys, it’s kind of what you were talking about before, it’s like the anxiety level, right? They’ve got a lot to think about. They do kind of struggle to put out their own personalities straight away when they first get started and they like to kind of rely on copy and paste. I guess that's what’s happening. Would you suggest they really try to avoid that or it’s okay for a little bit to copy and paste up?

[Rob Judge]: No, it’s fine to copy and paste them, but what I recommend guys do though, this is always my advice when guys are asking me like how they should copy and paste up, copy and paste the stuff that you find funny. Don’t copy and paste up because I wrote it and I said it’s a good text.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Mm-hmm.

[Rob Judge]: Like if you genuinely find it funny, if you see a text that I wrote and like, oh, you laugh about it, not only should you copy and paste that but maybe you should use that template or that type of humor even when you’re talking to girls too. Because again, everyone thinks their personalities are their own creation and they are who they are, but realistically, we all copy things we see throughout our day. It’s just a lot of times people forget where they get these routines from and then they, “Oh, this is just my personality.”

Like I know the stuff I’m writing to girls, it’s probably like a mixture of stuff I heard my friend say, stuff I saw in movies, whatever, and it comes together and like I take little pieces and make it into my personality, but you have to have a filtering mechanism where if you find it funny, use it. Don’t just use stuff because you think, “Oh, okay, this is going to be a good text because Rob told me to write it,” and then it’s not going to be a good text. But if it’s like, “Oh, Rob wrote this text and I think it’s funny and like I see the humor in this, then absolutely go ahead and write that text and send it all.

[Angel Donovan]: Excellent. Excellent stuff. Right. We’ve covered all the theory. [Laughs]

[Rob Judge]: [Laughs] Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So let's get practical now.

[Rob Judge]: Sure.

[Angel Donovan]: I’m sure some of the guys want to get practical here. So you just grabbed the girl’s number, where do we start? What should we text first and when?

[Rob Judge]: Okay. Well, the when part isn’t that important. Like a lot of guys, okay, like three-day rule, should I text her like the same night? I mean, realistically, it doesn’t really matter that much. I usually like to text girls the day after I got their number, you know, when I’m out at a nightclub or a bar, or maybe two days after, whatever, like, to be honest, whenever I have time. I don’t sit there and schedule my life around when I’m going to text a girl. So whenever I have a free moment like a day or two later, I’ll text her. I usually try not to wait more than like three days because then I just think that she might start forgetting about you, and also it just comes off a little too transparent like you’re trying to play the game a little too much.

So usually, okay, so it’s a day or two later, and the first text you want to send a girl should be what I call a radar text. And what that means is you’re simply just getting on her radar. You’re getting her to register you into her head, into her phone literally, so she could program your number in. So to send up a radar text, my litmus paper test for a radar text is it should only contain some kind of statement or a joke or whatever. There should be some kind of piece of information that requires no response from her.

You see, a lot of the times guys will send off their first text hoping to get a response from her. They’re like, “Oh, hey, it was really nice meeting you. Did you get home okay?” And the reason they’re writing that text is because they want the girl to validate them. They want her to write back and be like, “Oh, it was great meeting you too, and yes, I did get home okay.” They want to seem like a gentleman.

So your first text, the rule and the filter to run that first text through is, if I write this text, there should be no way she can respond to it. If she wants to respond to it, fine, but realistically… and I’m sorry. That's vague. I’ll just give you an example.

So an example might be you’re just writing back like some joke that you and her had together. So for instance, if, “Oh my God, I have to confess, I’m a little bit of a text addict, so I’m going to be writing you some Shakespearean text.” So then I’m going to say to a girl "I really shouldn't take your number.” And usually girls will laugh about that. They’re just going to say, “Oh my God, you’re a text addict" and I get all… I’m like love texting, like it’s just awesome, and they’ll laugh or whatever.

So a lot of times my first text to her will just be I’m indulging my text addiction or I’m relapsing in my text addiction just for you. You know, “Nice meeting you, Rob,” and that's it. You also want to… you could add a little pleasantry like, “Nice meeting you,” or “Hope you got some safe,” whatever. I mean, that stuff is okay as long as you lead off with that sort of value-add text, like it adds a little value to her day, it adds a little humor, it adds a little flirtiness, it adds… even if it just reminds her of that great interaction you and her had, that first text should simply be some kind of statement that allows her to be like, “Oh yeah, it was that fun guy from the bar or from the coffee shop or whatever.” You’re simply getting her to register you as like a fun, cool guy and like you don’t need anything. The text is completely non-needy.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, so I really like that. I think the way you… like one of my friends once said to me he would send a text and sometimes you don’t get a response, but afterwards he’d be like, “I know when she saw that text she smiled or she laughed,” right?

[Rob Judge]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: And that's really what you kind of want to picture in your head I think, and I think that's what you’re getting at here. As long as she looks at that text and she smiles or she laughs, it doesn’t matter if she actually responds to it.

[Rob Judge]: Exactly, and that's the whole thing. I mean, a lot of guys drive themselves crazy sitting by their phone waiting for that girl they just met to write back, and it’s like 15 minutes go by and it feels like four hours, and they’re like every time their phone vibrates they jump all over, check if it’s her. And you don’t want to do that to yourself either. You don’t want to put yourself in that position. It’s just a bad mindset to have.

So that's why a first text, it’s just kind of like… and a lot of times I’ll just write it, and then I’ll turn my phone to silent, put my phone in my pocket and I won’t even think about checking my phone for a couple of hours, because I don’t even want to check if she responded or not. I really don’t care. Like all a text is supposed to do is simply get her… I mean, realistically, in my head, the only thing that's supposed to happen is she’s supposed to program my name into her phone. So she now has my name with a little sort of fun, flirty text that kind of gets the ball rolling in a sense.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, totally. I like a point you brought up there. You put your phone on silent and you put it in your pocket.

[Rob Judge]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: And I think we spoke about this before, just like for general reasons I put my phone on silent about five years ago and it’s been on silent ever since. And I think another thing you brought up there was like the guy waiting for 15 minutes for that text, and it sounds like texting torture to me, you know?

[Rob Judge]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Like, man, what a waste of time, like an incredible waste of time, and you’re like building on negative processes in your mind, you’re building on anxiety. You’re not building good vibes towards this girl and this conversation, and you’re actually going to make the whole situation a lot worse in your head than it actually is because texting by its nature takes time. Like people are out or doing things, and sometimes they don’t even respond for an hour or two. We’ve got meetings, we’ve got whatever, right?

[Rob Judge]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So, I don’t know, for me that sounds like really solid advice. It’s just there. It’s just like put your phone on silent and forget about it for a while, right?

[Rob Judge]: Well, absolutely. And again, and this is where these lessons kind of transcend texting, go into greater lessons of just learning to be coo with women, is that's a mindset you should have anyway. It’s kind of like that detachment from outcome, like you’re not always so attached to the outcome that you need something to happen, like you’re waiting by your phone, like when you say a joke you have to have it laughed at, get her to laugh. Like you don’t care. If she laughs, great, it’s awesome.

But you shouldn’t be saying funny stuff simply to get her to laugh. You should be saying funny stuff because it’s an expression of your personality. It’s a way that you’re just putting yourself out into the world and you’re letting her judge, like, “Okay, is this guy funny? Is this guy cool?” whatever, because really, her opinion of you is really none of your business. That's her personal decision. So all you can do is just be your most awesome self, throw yourself out there and just kind of let the chips fall where they may.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah, great. Okay, so now we’ve basically sent our first radar ping out and she responded or she didn’t respond, okay? Now, if she didn’t respond, what would you do next?

[Rob Judge]: Okay, first of all, it doesn’t matter at all she didn’t respond. Expect her not to respond, so that way if she does respond it exceeds your expectations. I always expect girls just not to respond. And then maybe a day or two later, and the way I like to do it is I like to do it on a day that I would like potentially to see her. So usually this'll be like a Monday… not Monday, maybe like a Tuesday or a Wednesday. Those are like nights I like to go on dates.

So a Tuesday or a Wednesday I’ll initiate what Bobby and I call the Key-Lock Sequence, and it’s a cool name to describe a very simple process. It’s essentially the three-process that you want to sort of put her through to get her excited to meet up with you for a date.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, let's hear about it.

[Rob Judge]: Okay, so the Key-Lock Sequence is, essentially the reason we gave it that name is because the way to think about it, whenever you’re texting a girl, think about it like this. Think about it like taking a key, slipping it into a lock, turning the key, and then opening a door, because that metaphor describes each stage of the Key-Lock Sequence.

So Stage 1 is to spark an emotion in her, and that's like taking the key and putting it in a lock. So the key, the metaphorical key that we’re going to be using, is some sort of statement or joke or something that's going to get an emotional response from her. And we spoke about this earlier. It’s very easy to figure out what’s going to get an emotional response from her because probably you said something during your initial interaction, your face-to-face meeting, that she probably laughed at you, thought it was funny, she thought it was interesting, that definitely piqued her interest. Like this girl didn’t give you here number because you didn’t… let's say this a different way.

This girl gave you her number because you were able to spark some sort of emotion in her, so figure out what the high points of the interaction were, pick one of those high points, and that's the best key to use to spark that emotion. But you know, sometimes guys legitimately can’t think of anything to text, they can’t think of something that happened, they can’t think of a good first text. So that's where, if you want to go through and you want to use one of the cut and paste texts, one of the ones I like to use is like my standby.

Whenever I can’t think of something good to write, I’ll just say, “Oh my God, I just had a cup of coffee brewed by the hand of God. Hope you’re having a great morning too.” That's like my standby text. Really silly, really stupid. It’s not like any kind of comic genius, but for some reason that phrase “cup of coffee brewed by the hand of God” usually gets girls to laugh a little bit, like usually it’s not what they’re used to hearing from guys. Most guys write like, “Hey, what’s up?” or “What are you up to?” or whatever. But like to say you just had a cup of coffee brewed by the hand of God, she hasn’t seen that before.

And there are a couple of other texts I like to write. I’ll give you an example of another one. I’ll give you examples, two more actually. One other one I like to write sometimes, and this actually happened to me, was one time I walked out of my apartment in Manhattan and I was walking down First Avenue, and I saw this old man on a scooter wearing kneepads and a helmet just leering at women on the street, and I thought it was like the funniest visual I’ve ever seen. And actually, as soon as I saw that, I texted a girl that I had met over the weekend. I said, “I just saw an old man on a scooter with kneepads checking out babes. Made my whole morning. What’s up with you?” And again, usually it’s a good response because it’s a very visual thing, it’s very funny, it captures her full attention, and again, it’s not like anything she’s used to seeing.

A third text sometimes I’d write, and this is a little more riskier, it’s a little more high-risk, high-reward, but one thing I started writing to girls, sort of just to entertain myself, and then I realized this was a good way to spark an emotion, was I’d write, “What are your feelings on having a love child?” And again, that one’s a little riskier because you’re kind of implying that you and her are going to have sex and it’s a little bit more of a high-risk text. But sometimes that phrase “love child” and asking what her feelings on having a love child are, if a girl has a good sense of humor and she’s pretty confident in herself, a lot of the times she’ll laugh at that and kind of joke with you and write back and be like, “Oh, blah, blah, blah.”

But ideally the reason you’re initiating this key-lock sequence is because you want to get a response. Even if it’s just “ha ha ha” or “LOL” or “oh my God, you’re crazy,” those are really the best responses that you’re going to get from this because the only thing that you want to do with this first text is get her to feel an emotion, whether that's laughter, whether that's intrigue, whether that's even be a little pissed off.

You know, a lot of guys are afraid to sort of like spike the emotions in a downward way, to get her a little pissed off, but in this situation, even a little negative emotion is good because the thing is, when you spark her emotions, you now have her full attention. And like I said earlier on this call, getting her full attention when you’re trying to set up a date is like step zero. Like you have to have her full attention. Like she can’t be kind of looking at your text but driving, whatever. Like if she sees your text when she’s driving, she’s going to pull off the road to be like, “What the fuck?” like “Who is this guy?” you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. So you just talked about some of the positive responses there, smileys, ha ha, LOL, all that stuff, and some of them could also be like her challenging you, right? Challenging you on what you said or something. That's still a positive response.

[Rob Judge]: Definitely, definitely. And also, like I said, I went over all the template text and the cut and the paste text, but realistically, your first text should be something that's very personal to the interaction you and her had. I’ll give you an example.

Literally, I used like last week, was… I met a girl in Vegas a year prior and I was in the state that she lived in. I was going on a road trip. So I was like, you know what, let me just see if I could text a girl and get her out. So what I wrote to her was, I was like, “Hey, dorky Italian girl… ” She’s Italian. I said, “Hey, dorky Italian girl… ” I kept calling her like a dork when we met. I said, “Hey, dorky Italian girl, it’s Rob, that charming guy from that time in Vegas.” I’m like, whatever.

So that was the first text, was like, “Hey, dorky Italian girl, it’s Rob, that charming guy from that time in Vegas.” And again, that's going to spark an emotion in her because like she remembers we were joking around, I was calling her a dork. It’s kind of playing on that idea like Vegas being the wild city. I’m kind of being a little cocky, funny, saying I’m that charming guy from that time in Vegas, kind of making our brief conversation at some nightclub sound like it was so much more romantic and epic than it really was. And obviously that emotion worked because it sparked an emotion in her. She remembered who I was and we texted back and forth. I ended up meeting up with that girl.

So, realistically, to spark an emotion, the best way to do it is to use a text or to write something that's a little more personal, that's a little bit more… that would get an emotional response from her. But if you cannot think of that text, just go with the cut and paste text. Go with a text that you know hopefully will spark an emotion in her.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. And those kind of paste texts, like the examples you gave, often they’re a bit like routines. We all have our personal routines just through experiences of life. It’s the stories we tell all the time. It’s the jokes that we found funny and we tend to use a bit. It’s just basically things that we found that had worked in the past and we just repeat them, but they often are from our own experiences just like your example of the guy in road and the other Starbucks example earlier, because I know you love hanging out in Starbucks.

[Rob Judge]: Oh, absolutely, yeah. I mean, definitely. It’s just like all those guys, different examples, are like just playing off ideas that are part of your day-to-day life and that you’ve gotten a good response from other women. And you have to really kind of look at it like if you’d gotten responses from other women that were positive, probably the girl you picked up are similar to those women, because we tend to attract girls who have similar senses of humor. Like I said, your personality, you have to trust that. If it’s worked on girls in the past, it’ll probably work with this next girl because she’s probably not that much different than the other girls that you’ve hooked up with in the past.

[Angel Donovan]: Totally, and there are some golden texts you find which basically work in pretty much every situation, and it’s just through trial and error that you find those texts. I want to put a personal note down here on like why I think it’s important to have these kind of fallback texts, these copy and paste texts.

[Rob Judge]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: It’s just that most of the guys on this podcast have jobs, right? You’re working or you’re busy with life, you’re a student, and maybe you have a lot of stuff going on in your life. And we have a certain amount of energy per day and we also have lulls, right? And then maybe that time that you’re thinking, “Oh, I have to text this girl because I met her three days ago and I don’t want to leave it too long,” it just so happens you’re wiped out, you’ve been working hard or whatever it is, and you can’t think of anything. So what I think is the bad thing is for you to stress out and think, “Oh, I have to make something creative right now,” when you’re basically too tired. Your mind’s a bit hacked out and you can’t think of anything.

Don’t stress about it. Everyone’s in these situations. We all get tired sometimes when we’ve been working or whatever’s going on, and fall back on one of your default texts. It’s the perfect time to do it.

[Rob Judge]: Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. You don’t want to be exerting too much mental effort or you don’t want to be stressing out. It’s like what you said, like she’s not worth it. I mean, dating’s supposed to be fun. Texting girls is supposed to be fun. So it shouldn’t be this big mental exercise that you just think, “Oh, okay, hot girl. Of course she’s going to like me and of course she’s going to find this text funny.”

[Angel Donovan]: Cool. Alright, so what happens next?

[Rob Judge]: Alright, so now we’re moving in to the next step, Step 2 of the three-step sequence. So this is where you turn the key in the lock to unlock the door. So this is where a lot of guys fall short, because a lot of guys will get a girl laughing and then they’ll immediately… they’ll either keep flirting with her, they’ll keep joking around with her, and that's not a good idea. Again, one or two texts, even three texts that get her laughing, joke around with her, flirt with her a little bit, if she’s very responsive to that first text, going back and forth maybe with one or two texts is fine, but you don’t want to have like a three-page flirt-fest like back and forth because that should be what you do on the date. So the thing is, a lot of guys fall into this trap.

And I critique a lot of guys when they send me their transcripts and tell guys who are doing this, I’m like, “You can’t keep flirting with her on text, because if you keep doing that, you’re going to deflate all that good sexual tension, all that good energy, all that good momentum that you have going. You don’t want to waste that like just having this long, drawn-out text conversation.

So the next step, unlocking the door, is what I call Making A Connection. And it sounds like it’s this, I don’t know, Dr. Philesque moment where you’re going to make some profound connection with her, and it’s not. When I say making a connection, all you need to do is show her that you see her as more than just a hot chick. And that could be as simple as complimenting her on something about her that you like, something that you remember that you want to talk about more.

So one of my favorite things… my favorite ways to do the second text is I’ll just say… say that a girl told me that she was reading some book that I’d never read book and sounded interesting, I’m like, “Been thinking a lot about,” whatever, “Fifty Shades of Grey, and I want to pick your brain on it a little bit more,” or whatever. It’s essentially picking something out about her that you like beyond just the fact that she’s hot and she likes you, and complimenting her on it. It may be her sense of humor. It may be her fashion sense. Whatever it is that you liked about her when you met her, use the time to kind of tell her why you like that about her.

And a lot of the times I even like to combine the first step with the second step. So if I write a text like about the old man on the scooter, right? Say I write that text, and the girl’s like, “Oh my God, that's so funny. Ha ha ha. I saw a guy like that today too,” and she tells me her story about some creepy guy that she saw, some creepy woman, whatever. And she tells me some story, I’m like… I’ll say like, “Ha ha ha, this is what I love about you, that you’re so observant,” something like that, like something as simple as “you’re so observant” or “you have a great sense of humor or whatever.

But the whole purpose of the second text is just get her to feel like, “Oh, wait a minute, this guy is not just trying to fuck me. He's not just trying to get me out because I like him. This guy actually legitimately likes me for a reason beyond just the fact that I’m talking to him.”

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, this stuff is really good. Listen up everyone, because this is something I think a lot of guys shy away from because they’ve read a lot about attraction and they don’t feel like… and also they have this fear of kind of… they’re feeling like they’re putting themselves out there when they say something nice to the girl or whatever. But this is really essential stuff and it’ll make it so much easier for you to meet up with her afterwards.

[Rob Judge]: And I see that too. I agree with you. A lot of guys don’t like doing this because they feel like if they throw out a compliment and they tell a girl that they like her or that they like something about her, they’re afraid that's going to make them look like they’re low value or that they are kissing her ass, but the funny thing is that it’s the exact opposite. When you compliment her and tell her that you like something else about her beyond just her looks, it seems like that you are higher-value because you have standards and that she’s living up to those standards. So it seems like that you’re not just going out with every hot girl whose number you get, that like legitimately you found something about her that you like.

Because if you’re really like this cool, awesome guy who’s meeting a lot of women, you meet a lot of hot women and you get a lot of numbers and you have a lot of opportunities to go on dates. So when you say like, “Oh wow, I really like your sense of humor,” or “I really like that book that you recommended,” or whatever, she’s going to start thinking, “Oh, like this guy has standards, and wow, I’m living up to those standards.” So it actually comes off almost like you’re qualifying her, and again, it just brings so many positive good emotions into a very short text interaction, and that's why it’s like a crucial step in this three-step sequence.

So, okay, and then as soon as you make that connection, as soon as you’ve checked in with her and you feel that she understands that you think she’s unique, you think she’s different, whatever, the final step, and again, this is where so many guys go wrong and this is so stupid that they go wrong here, but the final step is you have to ask her on the date. See, a lot of guys, it’s amazing, they hand me these text transcripts that are like 10 pages long and they’re like, “Oh Rob, tell me where I went wrong here,” and I’m like, “You went wrong on the first page when you failed to ask her out on a date.”

Look, the purpose of text is not to get cute. It’s not to build attraction. It’s not to get to know her better. The only purpose of texting a girl is to get a date, so stop having these long conversations. There's no need for it. If you get a girl emotional and you make some kind of connection, the only other thing to do now is the final, the third step, which is like pushing the door open. It’s what I call Handling Logistics. You say to her: “Awesome, let's get drinks tonight.” “Awesome, let's grab a cup of coffee.” “Awesome,” whatever. And I keep saying awesome… [laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] That's definitely your default word there. [Laughs]

[Rob Judge]: Yeah. [Laughs] I often say that on a text and you don’t have to. But essentially what you should do though is just tell her. Don’t ask her. Don’t say, “Oh, are you free tonight? I’d like to take you on a date.” Just be like… I mean, you can say, “What are you doing later? I’m taking you out for a drink,” but tell her what you want to do. I’m taking you for a drink. I’m taking you out to dinner. I’m taking you to a movie. Whatever activity you want to do, just tell her that's what you’re going to do and you have a way better chance of getting her out just by telling her rather than being like, “Oh, do you want to go see a movie tonight?” You might think that sounds polite, but it actually comes off kind of chumpy.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. So to avoid the chumpiness factor, would we have some kind of deadline, like a number of texts or like a week, just some kind of marker for guys to keep their eyes on? I know deadline’s a little bit too strict, but it’s nice to have like a simple rule to follow.

[Rob Judge]: Okay, well, a simple rule is simply that if you feel confident that you’ve hit those two checkpoints, like you’ve sparked an emotion and you’ve created a connection, that's the checkpoint. And again, sometimes it’ll take you maybe 10 texts to spark an emotion and create a connection. Sometimes it might even take 15. It probably shouldn’t take more than 15 texts before you ask. In fact, it shouldn’t take more than 10 texts before you ask.

So, realistically, cut yourself off at 10 texts and just kind of bite the bullet and ask her and throw it out there and be like… and again, as simple as, “What are you doing later?” question mark, like, “I want to take you out for a drink.” Or, “What are you doing?” like “Are you free tonight? Let's grab a drink.” Something as simple as that.

And again, when I say like just tell her what you want to do, you absolutely should, but if you want to add a little bit of politeness, if you want to be a little bit of a gentleman, just ask her, “Are you free tonight? What are you doing later?” One of the texts I like to do to girls is say, “What are you doing at 8:03?” And again, because it’s kind of a weird time, so she’s like, “Eight oh three? Why?” So just kind of like a funny little flirty thing to throw in there.

But just ask her, “What are you doing later? I’m taking you for a drink. I’m taking you to play pool. I’m taking you for this. I’m taking you to go bowling.” Whatever activity you want to do, just tell her, like, “We’re doing this later.”

And only three things are going to happen there. She’s going to say yes. That's the ideal situation. She’ll say, “Okay, that sounds great. I’ll meet you at eight, whatever.” And if you do this right and she’s attracted to you, and she’s free, that’ll happen a pretty high percentage of the time.

There’s the other scenario where she’ll say no but legitimately because she cannot, because like she has work, she has other plans, whatever. And you know that this is a legit excuse because she’ll say, “Oh, I can’t tonight, but let's do it Wednesday. Let's do it Thursday, Friday, whatever.” If she suggests another day, that's just as good as her saying yes. So if she suggested another day, you’re golden.

And then there's the third scenario where she says no. And if she says no, if she’s like, “Oh, I can’t,” or she’s like, “I don’t even know you well enough yet,” or whatever, read what she said, consider it, and then just give her what she wants. And again, a lot of guys don’t read in between the lines of what a girl texts back. If she says, “Oh, I can’t,” the guy just immediately walks away with his tail in between his legs and says, "Oh well, she doesn’t like me. I guess I failed," and that's really not what happened at all.

My rule is if she’s writing back to you, if she’s responding to your text, she’s interested and you can get her out. You just have to play the game right. So whatever she writes back, if she’s like, “I don’t even know you well enough yet to go on a date with you,” or “I don’t even know you well enough yet to grab a drink with you,” you write back, “Oh, you’re absolutely right. My name’s Robert Andrew Judge. My favorite color’s green. My favorite animal’s a koala bear. When I was a little kid I wanted to be a baseball player. And a secret I never told anyone is that I like that song from Titanic.”

You can kind of have fun with it. Give her your whole résumé. Joke around. Joke with her. Make her see that you’re, “Oh, okay… ” You can tell her what she needs to know about you.

If she says something like, “Oh, I don’t drink,” sometimes girls say, “I don’t drink,” you say, “Okay, oh, that's totally cool. We’re going to go for this totally awesome new beverage called coffee, nonalcoholic,” whatever. Have fun with it. Again, don’t look at this like if she says no, “Oh, this is game over and now I delete her number and walk away.” When she says no, the game’s just begun. You start playing a little bit more. You start looking at what she’s writing and decipher those clues, see what she needs, what she wants to hear to get her out and just kind of go that route.

[Angel Donovan]: Man, I think this is really good. It’s a very simple model. I think it’s great for beginners in particular because it’s so simple, it’s just this free-step thing, and it doesn’t take long either. Like you say, it should be on the 10 texts or whatever, so it avoids all the complications people can get into with this. So it’s really good.

[Rob Judge]: Oh, thank you.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. So before we round this off, there's a question I ask everyone that comes on the podcast.

[Rob Judge]: Sure.

[Angel Donovan]: And I didn’t ask it to you last time because I hadn’t started asking this question. I think it came at a later point. So I’m asking you this time. If you’re a complete newbie, you haven’t read anything and you’re just starting out and maybe haven’t got much experience with women, what are the top three things you would recommend a guy does to get success with women as fast as possible?

[Rob Judge]: Okay, that is an excellent, excellent question. Number one would be to draw a line in the sand and decide how many approaches you’re going to do a day and you stick to that number of approaches come hell or high water. I don’t care if all you do is walk up and ask a girl for the time. If that's all you can do, that's fine. But like when I started out, I said to myself, “I’m going to approach two girls a day,” and that's not a lot of girls. Approach two girls a day. I used to do it on my lunch break at work and I didn’t care what happened, I wouldn’t let myself go back to work until I did my two approaches.

And I really think that that really kind of solidified some really good habits into like just forcing myself to go through it, because like I love dating advice. When I started out I was reading tons of books and ebooks and audios, and I was overloading myself with information, but the thing was that I was going out and doing it. And two approaches were my minimum, so I was doing a lot more if I was going out in a nightclub or a bar or whatever, if it was a weekend.

But two approaches was an absolute minimum. I had to do that every single day, because if you’re not doing the approaches, you’re just spinning your wheels. You’re just listening to these interviews and you’re not actually going out and talking to girls. You’re never going to get better. It’s like reading books on working out and never going to the gym. I mean, everyone knows how ridiculous that is.

So the first thing is you have to draw a line in the sand, two girls, or whatever. For me it was two girls, but for you it might be five girls, for you it might be one girl. Whatever it is, draw that line in the sand.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So you’re saying like set a rule of a number of approaches you’re going to do per day or per week and stick to it.

[Rob Judge]: Exactly. And I would say do it per day, because per week you could start saying, “Oh well… ” it’s kind of like you put things off, whatever. In fact, I would even say do it at a set time period. Like I used to have that one-hour lunch break at work when I used to work in Manhattan and I would just go out on the streets of Manhattan for an hour and I would have to do two approaches, and I was scared shitless to do those approaches. I hated it. I was so afraid the first couple of approaches I did, but I was like if I don’t do this, if I don’t take action, I’m never going to really have sex again or I’m never going to have sex with a hot girl. And I always saw the end goal, so that's why I did it.

So for anyone listening, you really have to draw a line in the sand and say… even if the approaches suck, who cares? Even if it’s just like, “Oh, what time is it?” whatever. And again, I would not recommend being a pussy when you approach, but if you absolutely have to, you’re better off being a pussy than being a spectator, you know?

Okay, so that's rule one. Rule two, or the second thing, the second piece of advice I would give them, is you have to decide what’s more important to you. And again, this sounds like it’s like a inner game thing, but this is actually I think one of the most crucial things a guy can accept, is that… you know, I’ve been coaching for a long time, three-and-a-half years, and I’ve noticed there are two, I guess, resources or assets or whatever, that guys will choose. Guys who are good with women choose one resources and guys who suck with women choose the other resource.

And those resources are, guys who suck with women, their most important resource is their pride, right? Like their ego, who they think they are. So watch a guy who… like you always know the guys whose first resource is their pride, because they’re the guys who only approach if they think it’s going to go well and they’re always kind of second-guessing things and they always want to know, “Oh, what should I say? What should I do in this situation?”

And the reason that they’re always… because they’re so afraid to fail because it’s almost like, the way I think about it, you know when you play like Mortal Kombat or like a video game, Street Fighter, and you have… this is such a dorky analogy but just bear with me.

[Angel Donovan]: I’m totally with you. I’ve been playing Street Fighter X Tekken like crazy this week.

[Rob Judge]: Okay, okay. So you know, and when you play these video games, you have like the health meter, right? Every time you get punched your health meter goes down a little bit.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Rob Judge]: And that's how a lot of guys view their pride. They have this finite amount of pride, and if they get blown off by some girl it’s like a punch and they lose a certain chunk of their pride. And they’re afraid like, “Oh, if I lose all my pride, I won’t know who I am and I’ll be a loser,” and whatever. So then they’re always protecting their pride, and every decision they make is based on running it through, “Oh, okay, how is this going to affect my pride health meter?” So that's the resource guys who don’t get good with women and guys who suck and guys who never get good at this, that's their most important resource.

Now, the guys who get good with women, all the guys that I know that kill it with women, and this is a choice that I made a long time ago, is there's a second resource that's more important than pride. It’s an asset that you have that is definitely also finite. There’s definitely like a finite amount of it, and guys who are good with women understand that they have to prioritize this resource over their pride. And that resource, the resource that's most important, is your time. See, a lot of guys don’t think… like they think, “Oh, I have all the time in the world, blah, blah, blah,” but the fact is the clock’s ticking. Every second you’re losing like that health meter, and there's nothing you can do to get it back.

So this applies to both a micro scale and a macro scale. So on the micro scale, when I go out to a bar or a nightclub, I don’t really care about getting rejected. I’d rather figure out if I have a shot with a girl or not as quickly as possible because the worst thing in the world in my opinion is to walk up to a girl who really I have no shot with, have a nice, long, polite conversation with her for about a half-hour, and then at the end of the half-hour conversation she pats me on the shoulder and says, “Well, it was really nice meeting you,” and then she walks off and I’ve lost a half-hour of my night.

So the thing is, when I approach a girl, I’m approaching her in a way… and I’m not being like a jerk about it, but I’m approaching in a certain way that I can know within the first 15 seconds of approaching her whether she’s attracted to me or not, whether this is going to go anywhere or it’s not. And if it’s not going to go anywhere, I can just move on to the next girl and save my time, because my time is the most important asset to me.

So that's like on a micro scale. On the macro scale, your entire life, like you know we have a finite amount of time to learn pickup, to go and meet women, and that clock is ticking. For older guys, you know that clock is ticking. If you want to keep hooking up with younger girls, that window of opportunity is going to close one day. You’re going to stop being able to get boners or whatever and one day you’re going to die. So time kills all the greatest seducers. Casanova, Don Juan, Errol Flynn, all these guys, eventually they die, and you can’t fuck a girl when you’re dead.

[Angel Donovan]: Even Hugh Hefner.

[Rob Judge]: Hugh Hefner one day will die!

[Angel Donovan]: |[Laughs]

[Rob Judge]: Even The Hef is susceptible to time. So the thing is that like every day that you delay this idea of approaching girls, so every day you go out, you theoretically could approach a girl, and the reason you’re not is because you have your pride, “Oh, I’ll do it tomorrow… oh, I’m going to get my hair cut… when I lose some weight… ” I’ve had guys tell me, “Oh, I can’t do this until I lose five more pounds.” Dude, do you think it really matters? I’d rather get rejected but at least start the learning process being five pounds overweight.

Because absolutely, you’re making changes in your life, keep making those changes. I’m not saying don’t make changes in your life. You want to lose weight, change your appearance, change your clothes, that's great. Get a haircut, whatever. Do those things but do the approaches too, because it doesn’t matter if you get rejected. Rejection by girls, it’s going to happen anyway, but you might as well get them out of the way early so you can maximize your time rather than trying to wait to get it perfect because you’re just so afraid of getting rejected because it’s going to affect your pride health meter.

So that one choice, again, it’s very a simple choice to make, but I would point… the second thing I would tell guys is, understand you’re making that choice every time you leave the house and decide what’s more important to you, your pride or your time.

[Angel Donovan]: Excellent. Excellent point. Alright, number three.

[Rob Judge]: Number three is simply get comfortable with your sexuality and get comfortable escalating. Too many guys, they’re afraid to escalate, they're afraid of being sexual with women, they’re afraid to simply make a move and go for it. A girl would be more attracted to you if you try to kiss her and she turns her head than if you never tried to kiss her at all. See, so many guys think, “Oh, if I try to kiss her and she doesn’t kiss me, or if I try to hold her hand or if I try to ask her out on a date, or even if I approach her, that this girl is going to lose respect for me and she’s not going to like me, and then I’m a loser.”

The fact is that whenever I approach a girl, whenever I try to kiss a girl, whenever I try to escalate on a girl, I expect her to say no. That's the difference with me and every other guy. Most guys try to kiss a girl because they want the big movie moment where she’s going to kiss him and it’s going to be like doves are going to fly out, and I think that's ridiculous. In my opinion, I walk up to girls assuming the worst, and if she likes me, if she kisses me the first time, it exceeds my expectations. My expectations are pretty low for myself and your expectations should be low too, but with those low expectations, you should be escalating constantly.

[Angel Donovan]: Thanks man, those are some great three rules you have there, definitely effective, and it’s been great talking with you again today. This has been a really animated conversation today and I’ve really enjoyed it.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, me too, Angel. Thank you so much, and I hope guys take a couple of takeaways from it.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Yup, certainly. So this is basically based on the work you did for your Magnetic Messaging product with Bobby Rio, and it’s all about texting. And I believe like just it goes a bit further than the stuff we talked today. It also goes into relationships. I did want to talk about that but we totally ran out of time because we covered a lot of stuff already.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, I know. I apologize. I know that I’m a little verbose in my answers, but I’m just really passionate about this stuff, and our passion really comes through in the book too. The book goes through everything. It goes through, you know, when you’re trying to meet up with a girl, if a girl’s flaking on you. I kind of troubleshoot some different responses, a girl says, “Oh, who is this?” or “What do you look like?” or trying to get a girl to follow up with you, that kind of thing. But basically, anything you ever wanted to know about texting is encapsulated in this book.

[Angel Donovan]: Alright. Well, thanks a lot, Rob. Been great having you.

[Rob Judge]: Definitely. Thank you.