#106 What Attracts Women to Men (Female Perspective) with Hayley Quinn
Today's guest has run social experiments. She's got a female coach perspective. She comes also from a perspective of a bisexual whose also meeting and attracting women. She's also been exposed to the whole pickup artist (community) versus some other perspectives in her own journey. So, there are a lot of gems in today's episode that you wouldn't have heard before.
Today's guest is Hayley Quinn. She came highly recommended, if you remember, by Ross Jeffries, who was just on this podcast back in episode 95. He said, "I see people like Hayley Quinn, who I consider to be already at her young age, masterful." He said also that she is a marvelous teacher. So when he gave that strong recommendation - and Ross has been really around, he's met a lot of people - I decided it would be quite a good idea to reach out and have her on the show.
She teaches both men and women, so she's got that different perspective. She's had some pretty big youtube video hits with like dating social experiments where she goes out and does stuff in London, where she lives in the streets and she does experiments to see how people react. Some of these have had over 2 million views. That's not bad.
She's been a featured expert for Channel 4, ITV, Sunrise on 7, and other TV programs that some of you will never have heard of because they're based in the UK, but they're kind of a big deal here in the UK, where I am also currently.
As I said, Hayley's bisexual. So she brings a perspective of a girl meeting and attracting other women, which is interesting. She's also featured in the Channel 4 documentary "Bi-Curious Me", which covered the journey of some young bisexual women including her.
So, I think you'll get a lot out of today's episode. It's always good to listen to a female perspective. In the past, we had a lot of guys at the kind of beginning of the podcast. Now that's evened out a lot. We've got a lot more female perspectives, which just balances it out and gives us a complete perspective. It's also interesting that Hayley Quinn has this kind of double perspective because she's bisexual. So she's actually involved with women herself. I think that's great and something we can learn a lot from.
Specifically, in this episode you'll learn about:
- Hayley's background (06:00)
- Hayley's beginnings: from the pickup artist industry to the dating, sex, and relationship arena (07:22)
- Is there an egotistical vibe in the pickup artist industry? (09:07)
- Signs of ego issues that have negative consequences (11:02)
- Hayley's multiple perspectives based on her varied background (13:56)
- Uncomplicating all of the dating / pickup artist advice and information available to us (15:02)
- The need for real life experiences in order to socially interact effectively and get out of your comfort zone (17:56)
- Hayley's current perspective of the pickup industry (20:56)
- Positive and negative examples of pickup advice (22:32)
- The correlation of unethical, promiscuous men and the degradation of women (27:12)
- Hayley's social experiment of trying to get approached by men (32:20)
- The contrast between getting approached in different countries (34:30)
- Men and women are showing a lack of communication due to modern technology (36:45)
- What Hayley has learned through her bisexuality about women approaching women and sexuality (38:03)
- Masculine and feminine polarities: the extremes of finding a partner (39:50)
- Top three takeaways for guys starting out in dating, sex, and relationships (41:30)
- How to learn about Hayley and her work (46:00)
Items Mentioned in this Episode include:
- Hayley Quinn: Hayley's website for dating advice and taking control of your dating life.
- Hayley Quinn Members Club: Free 30-day access to members club, including all of Hayley's videos, forum, and monthly webinar.
- Hayley Quinn youtube: Hayley's youtube site including social experiments, dating videos, and life wisdom from the heart.
- David Deida: Angel noted David's work while discussing masculine and feminine polarities.
Books, Courses and Training from Hayley Quinn
Full Text Transcript of the Interview
[Angel Donovan]: Hayley, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[Hayley Quinn]: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited.
[Angel Donovan]: So, I wanted to get a bit of perspective of where you're coming from. We always like to kind of get a context where people have come from and I understand, you're 2 years old and you're based in London. What kind of other details can you give us about your current lifestyle, like relationships, dating and that kind of deal.
[Hayley Quinn]: Current lifestyle...oh, what can I say? I'm so passionate about my business and my company. It basically takes over my whole life. So, there is not an evening that goes by where I'm not working with a client, men and women or giving talks or appearing on some kind of media, doing a podcast about dating. I'm also writing a book at the moment about dating and love and romance. So, it's constantly in my brain.
I live in Chordich, so I am a bit of a hipster on the side and I have a long-term boyfriend who is a music producer and has got a long beard. So, that just confirms the stereotype and I'm also massively into things like yoga, meditation, green juices and just too weird (which is quite me as well), I also love weight training. So, I've doing lots of Olympic lifting at the moment as well. So, I'm into kind of all things weird, niche-an often in direct contrast of one another.
[Angel Donovan]: Cool, did you get into through Cross bit or...?
[Hayley Quinn]: No, I'm actually quite afraid of going into those Crossfit box.
[Angel Donovan]: It's a bit of cult really, isn't it?
[Hayley Quinn]: It is a cult! There are lots of secret cults. Yoga's the same though, you know.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, right, it's true.
[Hayley Quinn]: The yogi, right, they'll always convince you to join their studio and meditate with them. But yeah, I love all of that stuff.
[Angel Donovan]: So like a lot of people, I hit bottom before I got into this stuff. I was just wondering if that's something that happened to you. Like, how did you get into this? How did you get passionate about it? Did you have some kind of moment or some kind of ditch, like dark zone where you hit?
[Hayley Quinn]: Totally, but it wasn't quite like a conventional ditch. It was more like revenge. Revenge is my usually reason I give for getting into the pick-up industry.
Like all the stories, it starts with a boy that I was in love with about 10 years ago and I'd just come to London to go to University. I was having lots of other general bad stuff happening in my life. Like, both my parents are very ill and I was struggling at Uni.
Went out a guy, we were in love. We were totally in love. I thought that meant commitment and monogamy. Then, he went to Vegas to the porn star convention, the AVN Awards which, is run at the same time as the pick-up artist convention.
So, he hit up both of those and end up having an orgy with three female porn stars which, he then messaged me about (AOL Messenger which was thing at the time). I just thought, "What is this pick up stuff that's just ruined my life?" and I took at that point to kind of stalking out the gurus like Ross Jeffries or Mr. E or Wayne "The Juggler" Elise. I looked them up on line and then, I started and it was really through, I wanted to get into the industry in order to sort of like bring it down from the inside.
[Angel Donovan]: Was that the goal, bringing the whole thing down?
[Hayley Quinn]: And I'm sort of like...
[Angel Donovan]: Burn it?
[Hayley Quinn]: ...part way on the right path to the original goal but, also obviously, is part of engaging with the pick-up world, I've also discovered there's lots of men in there doing lots of good things and that actually, genuinely...the guys that follow pick-up material, you know, they're not all egotistical, player, women-hating misogynists at all. Most of these are really decent men who would just to have what I call like, the opportunity to have a normal life and normal relationships with women.
[Angel Donovan]: Great, so I noticed you brought up ego and egotistical. Is that some kind of vibe you came across? Why did you bring that up?
[Hayley Quinn]: Oh, I guess...you know and I say this as a...I'm hoping that I'm on the way to being a reformed egotist. Like, when I first got into the pick-up industry as well, this is another funny thing that happened.
I went...I was/am a complete dork, did not get on well at school, at University. This probably why I run my own business as well because, I just wouldn't vibe in an office environment. I'm too feral.
I just found out this stuff that you could learn things but then, create a different impression on people and I went from having a very restrictive, sort of traditional upbringing [inaudible] and suddenly I went, "Oh, I'm bi-sexual. I'm down with the pick-up guys. I can do whatever I want." Obviously, when you say to the universe, you just set yourself up to have the most terrible personal disasters.
And it's also something I encounter on a near-daily basis when I'm either with guy that I'm working with through my memberships sites and my subscription clubs or when I'm coaching people. That lots of guys get into this with the best intentions and they somehow…they kind of get way laid as they realize, "Oh my God. I can do all this stuff." They have access to all this stuff they never had in the past and because of that, they kind of forget their original intention and go on this whirl-wind adventure which actually, usually ends up leaving them in a dark place, which they then have to scrabble back from. They end up back where they originally were but, I see this also.
Lots of pick-up guys who are my really good friends would describe a similar journey. You know, like geeky person, no access to sexual relationships, learns some skills, crazy bonanza of taking it a bit too far, usually losing another person or having a bad personal situation as a result of that and then, kind of leveling out to some sort of more meditative relaxed state around relationships. So, I went through that myself, I've seen it in my friends and I see it nearly every day in the people I work with.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I certainly seen it a lot and it happened to me also a while back. So, I thought it would be interesting just to give the guys some kind of concrete examples because, when we're talking about ego and these kind of a intangibles, it can be pretty hard for guys to see what we're talking about and what that kind of dark place would be. Are there any kind of signs you would pick up on? Say, if you're coaching clients and so on that you pick up on this ego has become a bit of an issue or it's not working out for them and it could lead to some dark place soon?
[Hayley Quinn]: Totally, as a basic thing, I always say to be...before I begin working with them, I was like, "What's your intention?" and I tell them to remember it because, that can shift around a lot when they're introduced to all this new stimulus.
[Angel Donovan]: Just out of interest, what is the top reported first step that people want? What is that first intent?
[Hayley Quinn]: For me, people usually work with me (I think this is partly because, I work with women as well and it's my brand and my position) because, they actually want to have a relationship. That doesn't mean that they want to go out with the first person ever. They usually want to date, develop some skills, overcome their fear or anxiety around meeting women and then, eventually meet a very high-quality woman to have a relationship with. That's the usual thing.
Where I can say you can know that it's starting to go a bit AWOL and a bit wrong is when you start...I had a guy write my recently and he said that when you start evaluating women in particular, the people you're engaging with and you kind of lose sense then of people and you have more of a cyborg-ie perspective towards them...say it like becomes all about you. Like, "There was this woman. She was an eight of ten and then I kissed close to nine out of ten and I've got five numbers this week and I'm going to like..." It's like, "What are you talking about?"
When there's no people anymore in the stories that you're telling and you're just giving facts, numbers, digits and marks of attainment that you see in relation to yourself. At this point, I know something is going badly wrong because, I would argue, "Why do you need five numbers? Really, why do you need five numbers in any one given week?" You don't. That is too many numbers in there. You need to possibly explore and sustain any kind of connection with any of those people.
Likewise, you should other stuff in your life that's more important. You know, it's not all about how many women can I possibly have sex with in one week. That's a silly goal. Like, find something better to do with your time.
So usually when I find that people get very numerical and they lose sight of actually how much they're gelling with the person and it becomes more about what they've said to themselves and what they've achieved for themselves and they attach numbers to things. That's when I start knowing that something or I find anyway, that something's going a bit wrong.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, some great examples there. I'm also thinking like when you get those numbers or you get those experiences and then your first thought is to run back to some kind of forum and post about hoping that other people are going to give you likes or whatever they give you on these forums these days. I haven't looked at them for a long time but, I'm thinking of Read-It these days I think is one of bigger ones and some of the other big things, I know you get likes and all these kind of things there. So, if you're thinking about the other people and how they're going to respond to you, that's probably something to do with your ego, right?
[Hayley Quinn]: Right.
[Angel Donovan]: One of the reasons I wanted you on this show is because you combine these different perspectives that you've kind of like already given us a glimpse of. You work with both men and women which is relatively unusual in the industry. You've worked with pick-up artists and you were in a pick-up artist company in the beginning and you wanted to tear down the pick-up artist industry which is another perspective and you're also bi-sexual. So, you've got like this big mix of perspectives.
[Hayley Quinn]: I've done loads of work with feminism as well. So you know, I do lots and lots of work and apart from just the bi-sexual communities and also, communities around some kinds of different ideals around different forms of relationships and sexuality, I also do loads and loads of work promoting feminists' causes like, I'm doing a video about consent on Friday. You know?
So, I really...I kind of like...to not to use too much of a sexy word but, I do straddle two worlds in between the pick-up world over there and feminism which is way over the side. That's because I think fundamentally like, men and women shouldn't be seen as in opposition to one another and we shouldn't be bashing the other gender and thinking of a ways to mimic [inaudible] to whatever we want.
In fact like men and women often want very similar things. We have genuinely slightly different ways of a communicating, we socialize different but, a lot of time if we can unjunk stuff and I think both dating advice for women and a lot of pick-up advice for men junk stuff up. It makes it like more complicated and more nebulous than it actually needs to be.
[Angel Donovan]: So by junk stuff up, what does that mean? Is that an English term, by the way?
[Hayley Quinn]: No, I just made it up. I mean it's like, you take something...here's a good example for the pick-up. You take something like, I don't know, you co-define everything. You give it a new language, right? So you don't call a woman a woman, you call her a target. In fact by adding that layer of language and terminology, of course that is part of one of the things that creates a community like the pick-up community but, to your average dude (if there is such a thing), if he then starts learning this language and is simulating it with his experiences with women, that actually becomes, I find a some point a barrier to him connecting with women and it actually makes meeting women harder.
So for instance, if your normal guy loves his mom, would like a girlfriend, has never been really that guy who's been that great with women, suddenly is learning material which speaks of women as targets, at some point, he'll feel inherently uncomfortable on some level with that which means that when he then goes to approach and engage with women, at some level the breaks go on internally for him and he'll struggle to do that. So, that's a good example.
I find like there's those little examples like that of how actually...if it's like, you know. It's pretty normal for people to talk to one another. You know before Tinder, this is how babies were made and actually, if we should men and women how to both engage with one another respectfully and we move away from things that are over-complicated or overly jargon-ie...I have lots of guys asking me questions like, "Hayley, if I don't challenge or if I don't do an assumption in the first interaction, does that mean I've screwed it up?"
[Angel Donovan]: Do an assumption?
[Hayley Quinn]: Assumption. They feel like there's all this stuff they have to do in person to actually...they have to use this portfolio of techniques.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, I haven't heard the assumption one?
[Hayley Quinn]: Oh my gosh, there's so many assumptions. Assumptions like, "Hey, you seem French." You know?
[Angel Donovan]: Oh, it's like a statement. I get you.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah Okay.
[Hayley Quinn]: Kind of making a guess about another or it can be challenging or teasing her or something. Guys feel like there's that someone's got a list somewhere of all this stuff they need to do in the first interaction, if they don't perform it perfectly, it isn't going to work. Of course, that's rubbish.
What conversation you have depends on the two people that were involved in that conversation and the environment. So, I feel that there are lots of misconceptions in dating both from women's dating advice, men's dating advice, romantic comedies that men and women have absorbed which have given them false impression of how they have to go about meeting people. Most fundamentally, usually send the message that whoever they are today is not enough and that they need to suddenly do a whole bunch of other stuff in order to be with another person which I find really bad and untrue.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah and I noticed something you said in another interview. I was wondering about your perspective on this. What do you think about the need for experiences in life in order to have conversations? Like is this something you talk about with your clients about what they've done in life, how much they got out of their comfort zone?
I noticed that you've got out of your comfort zone. You've taken lots of left turns instead of right turns as you said like in one interview. Is that something that you recommend of your clients? Do you think that's important?
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah absolutely, I think there's no substitute for real-life experience and I also think usually as you begin down this road of personal development, everything that you thought you had to or the lines that you have to think use to walk within or work within or live within just sort of suddenly start to evaporate. Also, I think it is far better for instance than being on a forum and learning a whole bunch of conversational technique is to go out and do something rewarding with your time because, if you're doing something you're enjoying and you're passionate about it, that then gives you something to talk and you have experiences to draw upon.
So, I'm not saying particularly when it comes to things like sexual experiences, I'm not a big believer that everybody has to you know go straight into a monogamous relationship straightway, you know. I think most people need to explore and define some of those perimeters first. I just think there's a way that you can do that that's a bit more ethical and that's a bit more honest and less ego-driven if you go about it very consciously.
So yeah, I'm all in favor of that. Usually if they haven't done already, I'll be telling my clients to quit their jobs, travel the world and I think that's part of the way that you create your more of a sense of identity of yourself and I also think fundamentally, people that have stronger have identity are usually very attractive.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah I absolutely agree with that. I see kind of correlation between men who don't have a lot of life experience for whatever reason pretty narrow, small towns sometimes. Sometimes, it's not really their fault. You know, they're just born in small town but, they didn't manage to get away from it but, they haven't seen as much as other people and they're concerned about things like running out of things to say, right? It's just because they don't have a lot of things in their life. Is that something you've seen a fair amount?
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, I think that's a brilliant example of the correlation and you've done it also. It's just with people that have high degrees of social anxiety. Maybe they're also very logical in terms of how they approach things so that the whole, "Hey, say something you're passionate about," doesn't really connect with them.
So because of that and I do understand that in the beginning, how I like to work with people is like, I like to give them like a framework or how I like to put it is like, "If you're climbing a wall, you know roughly which way to reach next in order to pull yourself on to the next bit." Usually, you give people that framework to begin with, it build that confidence. It lets them know, "Hey, if I go into this strange unexplored space, I'm going to be fine. Actually, this is going reward me."
Eventually obviously the idea is just like skiing or something, you learn to free-style and actually begin to explore that but, lots of people as you said have never had that collision with those life experiences which has opened them up to something like that. I think then also fundamentally, if they're listening to this material or they're interested, then there's something in them that's fighting to get out and go and explore the world.
[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely, you just need to kind of let go and unleash themselves a bit more. Okay, so you mentioned you wanted to burn down the pick-up industry. Do you feel the same way today or have things changed a bit?
[Hayley Quinn]: Things have changed. I have to say there are some pick-up artists out there who I owe a lot to. Andy Yosha who founded Day Game, he's been a long-time friend. He literally let me live with them when I had no money. So, he saved my butt and that Shasha Daygame who's also helped me out on a whole bunch of times is one of my closest male friends.
There are loads and loads of men in pick-up who are doing great things. It's like any industry. There are some people out there who just have purely commercial interests and it's a business. Everyone has a degree of commercial interest but there's some people out there...what I don't like is I don't like scam marketing. I don't like playing on people's fears. I don't like telling people, "There is only one way that you can do things and it's this way and if you ignore it, you're stuck," because I think also, people have to have a right to pick and choose what is suitable for them. I think when we take that away from people, we've just scared them and we should do that.
[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely. The thing that kind of annoys me these days is like, obviously we came from The Game maybe 10 years. It was 10 years ago when that came out and there was all this buzz and hype and pick-up artists are great and then, there was a backlash and I feel we're still there. I mean, like I listen to some podcasts and they're just like, "Everything in pick-up is terrible. You know, that evil pick-up artist and stuff."
There a lot of great stuff that's kind of come. There's a lot of happy guys that have maybe gone for that old dark zone but, they've come out and there's a lot of great advice and great things and ultimately, a lot of pick-up artists studied all sorts of things like from all sorts of areas of life, relationship advice, also some things to kind of piece that puzzle together and some of that advice was good.
So my question is for you, which parts of the pick-up artist's advice would you say are negative or positive? What are the kind of like most important examples that you would take?
[Hayley Quinn]: [Inaudible], I think those that base in real-life experience. So, I think there's a lot more that you can learn by going...like even to this day, [inaudible] actively do lots of infield coaching work with people because, I think there's something about, if someone physically experiences something and it's banked in their memory that they can do something, there's something that's incredibly freeing about that.
I also like pick-up material that say, "You know what Hey, you don't need to look like Brad Pitt or Bradley Cooper or whatever Brad from Hollywood you want, you can as a person as you are today, you can be attractive to women." Like obviously, someone who's got good self-esteem tends to like make sure that you know, [inaudible] and they're flats tidy and they go to the gym every little bit or whatever they choose to and they eat kind of healthy.
It sends a really good message about, "You know what you might have considered yourself an outsider for most of your life but Hey, yeah you're an insider." I like that a lot. I also like people having more permission. So, feeling like they're able to be authentic being like that's okay for them to say what they have to say because, lots of people I think particularly in England, they feel really suffocated or that they just...they're not allowed to say a lot of things.
So because of that, because I'm constantly seeking to please somebody else, they withhold all of their best stuff and they prevent people from getting to see who they are as an individual. So, I like all of that.
What I do not like, I don't like anything that kind of a takes away from women as awesome independent individuals and people in their own right. So, anything that lumps all women in together like we're some herd of people that just...we've tried to manipulate you guys so, now it's your turn to get your revenge. Obviously that sucks. It doesn't help anybody.
Likewise, anything that's kind of overly sexual in terms of how the presentation of women because again, I don't think that helps either. So, if there's any reference to a woman as being a slut or talking about how I'm getting some and then, amount of notches on your bedpost. All that filters down to is if women acted sexual in any way, they are bad which therefore, makes women ultimately be more precious around their sexuality and restrict it which ultimately helps no one.
I've heard plenty...I had an argument once with some pick-up guy who used the word slut in his seminar. I'm like, "That is just, it literally doesn't help anyone. Like, it doesn't help them. It doesn't help women."
I've also [inaudible] physically usually battle a fair amount of sexism you know. Like, at the start of my career when I was egomaniac and also kind of because I was the [inaudible] of certain large pick-up companies, I was presenting in quite [inaudible] way. That's not really who I am. You could see from many YouTube video that I definitely did not seek to present myself in some sort of like, "I'm a babe," because, I'm not and it would impossible to sustain.
But like, when I'm know I'm consciously trying to just be like, "Hey, I hate,"...for instance when I have had encounters with certain pick-up artists that have spoken to me differently than any of my peers because I am a woman or when me and like other women that work in dating we're always placed together because we're women. Like, I find that awkward as well and I really, really most of all hate things that say things like, "These are the three tips that you must learn and listen to our five steps and you have to wait once you pay this extra option and then, the extra special magic." But, I mean that's just...
[Angel Donovan]: Hey, it's the free tips. It's the seven tips, the nine tips. I can't stand all of those.
[Hayley Quinn]: That is the most...I mean, when you say to me...if it's marketed that way, don't listen to it. It's going to be rubbish.
[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely, absolutely, I mean, it's not just pick-up. I mean, it's not just dating. It's just everything on the internet these days. It's getting ridiculous.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, it is ridiculous and also, it kind of says, "Any Woman." Like why do you want to get any woman? You should be looking for women that you actually get on with and you think are cool. So, that whole conception that dating is a numbers game is also the other pick-up myth.
You know, "Just get rejected 1000 times, then you'll get thick skin towards it." I mean, that's horrible and just like punishing. I think that fundamentally as well that, we shouldn't...this is why I don't do boot camps is because, if you are holding a gun to someone's head effectively and saying, "Hey, you have to go talk to that girl. Go now! Go now! Go, go, go, go," and it's all stress, stress, stress, that's what a man will associate with this area of his life and in fact, meeting women doesn't have to be this like baptism of fire because, you weren't cool in school and you missed out on these things.
In fact, there's a much nicer way that you can approach anything. So, anything that says, "There's only one way that you can do it," or "This will get you every woman ever," or emphasizes the numbers angle that I would genuinely just like...
[Angel Donovan]: Great, one of the things I pick up in your conversation there was when we were talking about sluts. You were talking about some guys are obviously using slut and they're looking down on women obviously and they're not treating them well.
What I've noticed, I don't know if you noticed the same thing is another kind of correlation is that it tends to be the guys who sleep with a lot of women and have very short one-night-stands, kind of a very superficial who are being kind of man-whore-ish if you want to put it like that, more promiscuous who tend to use the word slut the most and tend to act this way the most and be more misogynous.
Is that something you've seen? I just think it's an interesting correlation there because, it's like the perfect typical situation.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, I think that's definitely...of course, I've...when that guy is in that ego zone where he's like looking to serve himself or get a certain amount. Really, ultimately behind all of that, need to go out and get a woman's approval by having sex with her will somehow prove something to himself. There's something that's demonstrating someone who's actually very afraid on some level who always actually deeply insecure. I mean, yeah they're the ones that will come out and they would say something completely against women and then, you get the other load of guys who just, they are so cautious around women because they...
[Angel Donovan]: Right, the other extreme.
[Hayley Quinn]: The other extreme is, "I can't kiss her because, I don't want to be a creepy. I'm not that guy," and so, they actually retract from their sexuality.
[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely.
[Hayley Quinn]: And what this leads up to women thinking is literally, "Oh my God, the only men that exist are either guys that will approach me and be really sexy will be really strong and then, you know will be a complete dick head and will make me [inaudible]." Or they'll have lots of dates with normal, you know, nice conversations but, they don't feel any sexual tension and in fact, women, you know, they're pretty liberated now.
I was out with a few of my female friends. They were all in their like 20s, good looking girls and like one of them was joking that she's had sex once in four years. We were like, "Well, you've had your chance now. You have to wait another four years until that happens again." I've got other friends that complain about sex droughts that go on to extreme lengths to try and find a guy to have sex with.
[Angel Donovan]: Is this for real though because, if you look at the science surveys, I know there's a lot of difference between what women say and I mean, even amongst groups of women. It depends how open you are. I'm sure you're friends are a little bit more open than average because, you're relatively open but, you know what I mean? Like a lot of women say and men say to a certain degree when they're around with other guys isn't actually the truth.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, no I think, I mean my friends are pretty candid on that front. My point is really that there are women out that a lot of guys will not approach a woman because they'll think, "She looks gorgeous. She looks lovely. She's out of my league and I bet her 6'3'' toned boyfriend is just parking his Ferrari over there."
[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely.
[Hayley Quinn]: And actually lots of time, women are lonely. They want and desire more male company and that there is a way that you don't have to be a dick head, you don't have to be a creep and yet, you can still be sexy and masculine towards a woman. I think like for all of the guys out there who identified themselves as the "nice guy" or the "good guy" or "always the friend", I call to them that they need to represent themselves better because, otherwise that the impression that women have is that there are no guys out there except these guys that treat me really badly or these men I actually don't want to engage with. So, there's a misalignment there where I know that lots of women want to meet men and lots of men want to meet women but, somehow the two sides aren't coming into enough contact.
[Angel Donovan]: It seems like we're getting more of the extremist and certainly with the people we coach I've seen and like it's mostly the people you're talking about who aren't confident enough and feel that they're going to be creepy if they make moves and stuff.
[Hayley Quinn]: I mean, I can definitely say about what guys fear of them being creepy and the big I see a lot with guys is maybe they've grown up and because, they're not the alfa dude or they don't see themselves as that bad guy way. They suddenly go, they attach being sexual with a woman to being nasty towards a woman or being creepy or being disapproved of by society not acting on their values. So, they actually push it away and go, "You know what? No, I'm not going to do that because, I'm a good guy," instead of recognizing that there is actually a way that...
In fact is every woman's dream is to meet somebody who is sexual, who is masculine, who is secure, who knows himself, who's honest and who's upfront with them. Also I wanted to emphasize that I don't necessarily think that you need monogamous relationships to be able to achieve any of those things. So, I don't say like, "The only way to be good to another person or have a great relationship is monogamy."
That's right for lots of people but, you might be in the space in your life where you're like, "Hey, I haven't had much sexual experience. There are lots of things that are transitory in my life. I just want to have experiences," and if that's you, that's fine but, there is a way that you do that which is ethical and positive and in a way that connects with women who are also in the same head space. So, I also like to encourage to escape the idea that all women want...we're just running around with big nets looking for sperm donors.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it's a middle ground. Most women aren't either; they're not a slut, they're not...you know, they're actually waiting for guys. You did a social experiment, I know in London where you were trying to get approached by guys. How did that go?
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, it didn't really go. I mean, I think trying to get approached, I was like approached...I conveyed myself as approachable as possible. I had a map. I was waving around looking completely lost. I also tried...I also had a little mini suitcase with me as a prop and I tried three different outfits.
I had one of me which was my (just to use that word again) "slutty outfit" which is like thigh-high boots and like a spandex-ie dress and then, I had me dressed kind of normally and then, me in sweat pants and hoddie. I wanted to see how people's reactions changed towards me and I sat right in the middle of the city. So, a very male, heavy male population there on their lunch break and you know what? I had to work really, really, really hard and I had maybe over a whole afternoon like a handful, maybe three guys approach me and said, "Do you need help with directions?"
They gave me the directions and they all left. Nobody asked for my number and even more surprisingly, nobody even asked my name and I think this is what I call, "England's need for privacy gone mad."
[Angel Donovan]: So just for people at home, if you're not in the UK, the city is basically wall street, that kind of area. So, there are investment bankers, people you normally associate with being more alpha, stronger, you know more driven and so on.
[Hayley Quinn]: They're the worst because, I was out and like I know from taking my female clients to the city, all these wall street area. Because, the men are so conscious of what the other men around them in the social group are judging them, they are even less likely to say hello to you. So, forget it.
[Angel Donovan]: It's interesting.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah but, I also thought what was interesting is I have a belief that (particularly in England but I also think in a lot of Western or Northern European societies), we have this fundamental respect for other people person space and privacy. We go, "Oh, no, no. I can't approach because, I'm interrupting them," or "I'm not going to approach her because, I'm intruding. If she wanted to speak with someone, she would already be sitting with someone."
Like, "Oh, they're crying. I'm not going to comfort them. I'm going to leave them to deal with it by themselves. Like, this is a real English mindset towards things and I think this is literally the antithesis of romance and like why we have Tinder.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah absolutely. Would you say it's different? I mean, I know you spend a little bit of time in the US. I don't know how much time that was but, have you seen a contrast between London, UK? Because, it's known for being pretty conservative here.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah I mean, it turns out my career working in New York, I wasn't there very long but, I was definitely hit on more in New York. I can say that. Like people would know just in a coffee shop, people would start chatting to you, not in a very aggressive way but, definitely in a way that made me notice them more. Whenever I'm on the west coast again, I tend to find (and this could just be my experiences when you're a foreign person in the country, you're more open and you're looking around) but generally, people seemed less inhibited.
I find England really bad. Also in other Northern European, Germany, Scandinavia to an extent, Holland, Australia you know. These are the countries that I'll often find [inaudible] and there are things like our gender roles are less well-defined. So, you know Southern European or Eastern European countries, it's not like "Men are men and women are women." So, they don't seem to have that same need that we do and I think particularly in places like England and Northern Europe, we have such respect for people's privacy that we just leave them alone.
Life will not approach women and this shocks women when I tell them this. I was like, "If you've got your head phones in, if you're spinning through Twitter, oh no."
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Hayley Quinn]: To women, she's just you know because, we're bored all the time because, we live in 2015 that we can't just sit there like a potato staring into space. We have to constantly doing stuff. Well, that constant doing...
[Angel Donovan]: You have to your head up looking around, smiling.
[Hayley Quinn]: Looking like you're doing absolutely nothing so that he has no excuse.
[Angel Donovan]: Which doesn't happen today at all.
[Hayley Quinn]: No, it doesn't.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Hayley Quinn]: So, I find it really interesting how many of these little things like the fact that our attention is constantly occupied by something, how we're communicating more on line and not going out enough, how we're hiding dating apps, how we have this...also things like misconstrued, in my opinion or some schools of feminism and then, also the back lash against the pick-up world, all of this is...and also male and female roles shifting around and ask generally just being super over busy in places like London. This equals men and women not meeting in a romantic way very much.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, the point of the...just being...people being busy with mobile phones. That just got worse and worse and worse. People are always playing. They've got so many apps now and that's an excellent point. We haven't really brought it up on this show which is surprising because, I know that it is one of the main excuses that men come up with.
When I was coaching, guys would be like, "Oh no, she's on phone. She's got her headphones on." Exactly these examples you give and now, they're just playing with their phones all time and the guys are like, "No, she's busy. She's texting her friends, right? I imagine."
[Hayley Quinn]: Right, right. So, when I teach, I have to say this. When I teach a guy, I say, "Look if that's your excuse, on one good sign, you've observed something about her that she's doing. So, we can use this as conversational material for you to begin the interaction." I tell guys to say, "Hey," pause and then, "I know." Like, "Hey, I know I'm gate crashing," or "I know you're right in the middle of reading that book," or "I know that you're typing furiously but, I just wanted to say..."
So, the second that you...all that you have to do for any guy out who's holding back approaching the woman you'd actually like to approach because he believes that she is already occupied, just acknowledge to start the interaction. Get it out of the way so that she knows that you're socially aware of what's going on and then, she'll chill out and then, you can actually use that as a meet...that's a conversational building block that you're just like...that you're using as a means so that is actually just...
[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely, yeah. She just needs that excuse to keep talking. Okay so in terms of the bi-sexual life, I mean, maybe you want to do a quick intro in that just to give a bit of context for guys. What did you learn about women, approaching women and sexuality and things like that because, that's kind of interesting in itself.
[Hayley Quinn]: It is. It's been a really interesting experience. I said, I mean, I was always attracted to women and I think that I buried it down for ages because, I thought I'm not...I knew I wasn't though. I tried to go into lesbian bars in London and I just didn't fit in. I was like, "Right, well that's it then. I'm never going to have that experience."
Actually, it was my inclusion with pick-up community which said, "Actually, you know what? You can approach people and you can kind of say what you want to them to an extent," that gave me that ability to go there and meet women.
Subsequently, and maybe this is just something about me but, I've always felt initially actually more comfortable approaching women than I did approaching men. Like that, it took longer to get over in my mind. So, I've done lots of inadvertent practice meeting women in the streets, bars, clubs, waitresses and I've had like the most amazing Tinder even, I've had the most amazing experience. I've always retained seeing women.
I'm like lucky I have an understanding partner who's like down with that because, people have different perimeters around bi-sexuality. So, I still to this day, date women, flirt with women and it's given me a great insight into actually how I think within all of us, we have the masculine and the feminine and it's about operating between those two different spaces in relation to someone else that really makes things sexy and attractive. So, I think for women to be able to work in that space where they're assertive or sexual or strong or commanding can be really interesting just as much as it can be interesting for a man to be vulnerable or to be a great communicator, tell lots of stories and to be emotive.
[Angel Donovan]: I assume you know David Deida's work?
[Hayley Quinn]: Yes.
[Angel Donovan]: And the masculine and feminine polarity. Do you find that the more extreme people are...like say you were a very strong feminine, right. Are you seeking a partner, even if it's a girl or a guy, a more masculine side and a more extreme one the more extreme you are on that side of the equation?
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, I find anecdotally anyway, I think people look for that balance intuitively. So, I always like androgynous women and sort of feminine men. Like typically, who I will partner up with which is why like I want to tell guys to stop always needing to be super alpha. You know, be yourself. Like, be whoever you are on that spectrum because, you do not need to be a chest-beating alpha male to be sexy and hot to women.
Like, sometimes I'll a chest-beating alpha male who would be very sexy and very direct towards me and for a moment, I'll be like, "Oh, he's so ooooo," and I'll let my eyes start to spin in my head. But then after usually chatting to him for five minutes and by this point, I'm usually arguing with him.
[Angel Donovan]: Got you.
[Hayley Quinn]: It's not a good vibe and I think that's something that's personal to each and every person. So, I would say as well to everyone, you do not need to mimic anybody else or try and be like a cookie cutter image of what...you know of sexuality. You don't need to be super feminine and you don't need to be super masculine. You need to find where on the spectrum you are, get really good at communicating and also give yourself permission to kind of like, move around a bit on that spectrum.
There will be some days where you might feel really assertive and very masculine. Other days, you might feel actually more vulnerable and feminine and that's not a negative. That's just a different aspect of you and I find that through dating women, being in lesbian relationship, that's taught me a lot actually about the different polarities that you can work within.
[Angel Donovan]: Great thank you for that. Okay, I know we're pushing time right now. So, the last question we always ask everyone is what would be your top three takeaways to guys who are just starting out in this. Like the most important things they should get right to improve this aspect of their life as fast as possible.
[Hayley Quinn]: Okay, one I'm going say in real life practice, they say an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. It's some saying like that and it's absolutely true. Get off the forums, get out there in real life. So, the first thing you usually need to do is just create time. It's like going to the gym. Like, you can't get ripped unless you dedicate a certain amount of hours of doing something.
In the beginning, right at the beginning, you might not feel like approaching a woman yet. Like, that might be outside of your comfort but, you know what? If you start exiting your house more and you are in public spaces. On a Saturday afternoon, you take your lap top and you work from a coffee shop or you take up a new hobby or interest. This is already good because, it's signaling some change to you and it's creating space and room in your life to actually meet people and get you comfortable in different environments.
Secondly, don't get too far ahead of yourself. If you are just starting, do not read sexual technique book or "When you get her back to your house" because, that is just overloading and you'll just feel like, "Whoa, this is too much." Instead, just keep it simple and focus on the most basic thing.
Like, before you even try and have a brilliant thing to say in the beginning, I always say to guys, "Just learn how to say, 'Hey, I just want to say you look really nice. Have a good day. Bye.'" That's it because, you have to get over the hurdle of actually putting one foot in front of the other and the smaller the hurdle you make it then, after you've got used to it, after you're going, "Oh Hey, I can do this really easily and she's smiling and she's loving it and this is great," then you can refine things.
Third point, I always teach the rule of thirds which is like, lots of times when (this is a real sign that a guy's read too much pick-up stuff as well) guys are assessing an interaction after they've left it, they'll be thinking, "What could I have done? What did I need to do then in order to like make her like me or get her number." You know what, that implies that all situations are somehow winnable and all the responsibility is yours and it's like a game that you place and if you get all the steps right, you win the prize at the end which is the women or the woman's phone number or whatever it might be.
Instead, I think in life basically, you have to...you get your third and your third, you can do a lot with that. You can work on yourself. You can improve yourself. You can improve your mindset to put you in much better circumstances to meet people. Get really controlled of your social skills. Really know yourself. Lead an interesting life. Put yourself out there. You can do loads.
However, you cannot account for half that. She probably lead 25, 30 however many years of her life before she met you that day and that's going to influence her perspective and how she relates to you far more than your influence you can play with in five minutes. So, not all situations are winnable and you should get out of that winnable mindset. You're not looking to win anymore. You're looking to actually connect to people and you know what?
It's like your class at school. Some people you're going get on well with. Some people you're going to hate or some people you're going to be indifferent to and that's just life.
The other third is sometimes stuff happens that is beyond our control. You know, I think a lot of things are within our control more than we think but, there are overarching things in our lives which sometimes happen and sometimes you just got to...my friend calls it "life tax." Sometimes you have to go there and go, "You know what, this is not going my way and I'm not going to push it anyway. That's fine."
So, whenever you're in that kind of a "life tax" scenario, what you really need to do is, you need to accept at what point your responsibility ends and you can't be responsible for everything. Part of actually being great with meeting women is getting to a bit of a point of acceptance as well. You go, "You know what? I accept who I am, what I am, where I am and I feel like I've done my bit well. I've played my hand well and everything else that happens, you know what? I'm not in control of everything because, I am not God." Sometimes, I find that's a healthier to rationalize situations.
Just to summarize, real life practice and opportunity is always best. It's always going to be superior. Don't get too far ahead of yourself. So, stick on the first step to emphasize actually getting out there and meeting people and then, refine things after that. Remember your original goal and also remember, where it's sensible to take responsibility and where it's sensible just to accept where you are. Because, your whole goal is to be as a chilled and in the best possible emotional space and when you're in that space, you meet more people and it will enable to continue and to improve.
[Angel Donovan]: Thank you Hayley some great points there to take away for the guys. If someone wants to connect, learn more about what you're up too, where should they go? How should they connect with you ?
[Hayley Quinn]: They can to...this is the egotistical but, www.HayleyQuinn.com. If they also into www.HayleyQuinn.com/club, I have a free 30-Day access link back to my member's club. I have member's clubs, one for men, one for women. Don't sneak on to the one that isn't yours.
[Angel Donovan]: That's interesting. I guess you get a few people that do that.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, I bet they do. On there is basically every video product I ever made. I don't sell videos series for hundreds of thousands and billions of pounds. In fact, you can watch them all for free for 30 days and then, run away and never pay me anything. So, if you want to do that you can.
Inside my member's clubs, there's also forums where I go on every other day and answer guy's questions personally as well and I run a monthly webinar. Aside from that, I also do do some coaching and a little bit but, that's an application process. They can find out about that on my site and also, check out my www.YouTube.com. It's rocking at the moment. Particularly, if you've disliked me during this interview and you want to make sit...want to watch me make big fool out of myself and appear in several ridiculous outfits and then read all the evil YouTube comment people have left for me.
[Angel Donovan]: Oh yeah.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: I saw some of those. I also saw a video called "What to do after she gives you a blow job."
[Hayley Quinn]: Oh yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: Which I bet is going to get some hits in the coming months.
[Hayley Quinn]: Yeah, if you go to...just Google Hayley Quinn and I'll pop right up. So definitely check out my social experiment videos as well.
[Angel Donovan]: Alright thank you Hayley. Thank you so much for joining us today.
[Hayley Quinn]: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I've genuinely really, really enjoyed it.
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DSR Podcast is a weekly podcast where Angel Donovan seeks out and interviews the best experts he can find from bestselling authors, to the most experienced people with extreme dating lifestyles. The interviews were created by Angel Donovan to help you improve yourself as men - by mastering dating, sex and relationships skills and get the dating life you aspire to.
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