Ep. #8 From Nothing to Fun to Flirting with the Least Risk with Christian Hudson
- A breakdown of The Social Man system for dating women with specific examples on how to take an interaction from zero to a relationship.
- The importance of emotions, both yours and the woman's to meeting and attracting women.
- A specific technique on how to take an interaction with a woman from nothing to fun and flirting with the least risk possible.
- A technique that gets women to invest more in you, and as a consequence become more attracted and interested in you.
- Tips on how to get yourself into the emotional state that will automatically make you more attractive to women.
- What your social support infrastructure is and how to build it. Why it is so important and you have to think about this and work on it if you want to meet and attract women more easily.
- Christianity (or faith) and learning dating advice - challenges and how compatible it all is.
Books, Courses and Training from Christian Hudson
Full Text Transcript of the Interview
[Christian Hudson]: Hey, Angel. Thank you so much for having me.
[Angel Donovan]: Great to have you here. Okay, well, Christian, just to start off, I want to give a quick overview of who you are and where you’ve come from so our users get an idea of what your specific take on dating advice and social advice is.
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah, sure. Well, it’s a long story and we’ll try to keep it real tight here, because I find that the only people who really like hearing biographies are typically people telling them [Laughs] So, essentially I stumbled into this whole industry. I was back in Ann Arbor, Michigan and I met a guy who would go on to write a chapter in a book called The Game, which I think we’re all familiar with, and he asked me to be his business manager. So, I thought, oh, it would be fun, and I didn’t really know too much about the whole, you know, pickup artist industry. There really wasn’t one at the time. And two years later, the company that we built was, by volume we were doing more pickup bootcamps than anybody in the world. This is like 2006.
And so it was very interesting just to go from not knowing this at all and kind of not being a guru to all of a sudden having something of a name, and then he and I broke off in ‘06. I left it for a little bit. But I really love doing this stuff, and I think that myself and the group of guys who we worked with have a pretty cool unique perspective on it. We’re all just kind of cool normal guys, we’d like to think, and not so much pickup artists as guys who just love women and have a lot of women in our lives. And so that’s what we want to share with other people, is the benefit of our wisdom and our experiences and all the fun times we like to have. I guess that’s the short version. [Laughs] The long version we can save for some other time. How about that?
[Angel Donovan]: That sounds great.
[Christian Hudson]: Alright.
[Angel Donovan]: So you’re take on the whole dating advice area is a bit more broader and it looks a bit more a single guy’s social life and improving…
[Christian Hudson]: Mm-hmm.
[Angel Donovan]: Can you talk a bit about like that, like what can you do with guys to make their single life better apart from the pure dating advice?
[Christian Hudson]: Sure. Well, I think that it’s more about how a guy thinks about it than it is about the specifics of it because, for example, one of the guys I work with, this guy, Race, he is amazing and he is so good with girls and he’s really fun, and his lifestyle and my lifestyle are very different. Like I’m currently in a lie I don’t go out much these days. I haven’t been socializing a whole lot outside of work and a few people that I’m very close to. So I think it kind of depends on what a guy’s personal priorities are, and that’s the place that we want to start, is figuring out where somebody is and what they want to accomplish and what’s important to them. And that really comes down to, okay, well, where have you been and what are the values and all that?
So my point is that there have been times in my life when I have been in a very, very social state and going out, partying a lot, and if a guy is interested in accomplishing that and feels like he needs to live that extroverted crazy life or even just have a lot of girls in it, that’s something that we certainly want to be able to help them achieve with good advice and also just general encouragement and whatever we can. But if you’re looking for the one, then that’s something that is also very achievable. And I think that a lot of guys, when they’re looking at this industry, unfortunately, the things that they see are kind of the, you know, like I just turned 30, what a lot of guys see are guys in their 20s who are partiers who are trying to teach other people how to be partiers, and at a certain point, I don’t know when, I just realized that people’s needs are a little broader than that.
So, yeah, I mean, and I’ll tell you the other thing that kind of underlies a lot of what we teach, and this came right from my own life, was a few years ago I was going through this whole party scene and I was dating a lot of like model girls and going to clubs and doing the whole dancing on table thing, and the few relationships that I got, after about three to six months, the girl kind of saw that I was not stable and not emotionally built like, you know, not stable in my life and wouldn’t be sort of a good long-term candidate for them.
So, what we really want to encourage throughout everything that we teach is the notion of developing yourself into an awe-inspiring man, whether it be in terms of your own social skills when you first meet somebody or just the way you live your life, being able to take responsibility for yourself, responsibility for the people around you. That’s stuff that keeps the girls around and not necessarily just attracts them. I know that a lot of guys come into this looking for the attract material, but some of them get so hung up on that that they forget to keep their lives together and forget to be men who can take care of these on an ongoing basis.
So that's a very broad answer, but I think that if like I’ll sum it up really briefly, it’s just we want to help guys be really awesome, we want to help them have a lot of fun, and most importantly, we want to help them connect with women who are good for them and not just women who might be a fit for some other guy who’s their coach or who’s a friend of theirs or what have you.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, let’s put this into a bit in concrete perspective. When you have some clients, what is the typical advice, some of the first things you’re going to tell them, the most important that they should start working on fixing to improve their lives?
[Christian Hudson]: Sure, sure. Well, again, it depends on what the client’s situation is, where he’s coming in from. And I hate to punt on this one but there’s never a one size fits all. We’re very kind of focused on like one guy at a time. I will give you some examples of some recent people who we work and just the diversity of some of the advice that we gave. And if a guy’s coming into this, first of all, I mean, for anybody listening to this, if they’re coming in, if they’re sort of new, I would just say that the important thing is to consistently be going out there, consistently be meeting new people, figuring out what’s important to you, and developing support infrastructure of whether it be coaches or friends or people on a forum who you connect with and who help you advance to the next level, whatever that maybe.
Now, in terms of the specifics of what we might work with a guy on, the last Infield Skills Weekend that we ran, where we had some guys coming in, we had a 38-year-old neurosurgeon and a 25-, I think, 25-year-old, he was like a programmer, and another guy who is in the late 20s, and the advice was all very individualized. The neurosurgeon guy, he was really stiff, like incredibly stiff. So what we were working on very extensive was body language. He had this little head tic where when he was talking to people he would like bob it up and down very nervously. And even though, you know, like this is a great guy, got money, he’s not a bad-looking guy at all. He’s actually very easy talk to once you get him in a place where he’s not nervous. And it was just that initial impression he was making and a lot of it was in his body language. So, we were working on that a lot.
On the flip side of that, the younger guy, the 24- or 25-year-old, the programmer, his body language was okay, but he just stumbled all over his words. So it’s funny, we were trying a couple of different exercises, and the exercise we ended up doing, and I crack up at this—we have a female coach named Jody. She’s like the whitest white girl you can imagine. But we’ve got this exercise where we have the client talk real gangster, like just walk up and like rapping and like throwing his arms around and like just really acting like a G, an OG, and she kind of throws it back at him. And it’s just a way to get him out of his show, right? So it’s a way to get him flowing and out of his head and not thinking about it. So this is an exercise he's doing in a classroom setting. And that one thing right there, it got him into the emotional state, and so the conversational state that he needed to be in to pull those walls down and to just be himself and to be fun, and he had a great personality behind all those walls. So, he wasn’t obviously taking that OG vibe out into the bars when were out later, but being able to remind himself of that and just kind of flow into that was very important for him. So, again, long answer to the question, but it’s just because every guy who we work with kind of comes in with a different need and the prescription for that is going to be based on where they are and what it’s looking like they’re going to need.
[Angel Donovan]: Great. Great, thanks. There are a couple of things you brought up that I wanted to touch on. First of all, you talked about support infrastructure.
[Christian Hudson]: Mm-hmm.
[Angel Donovan]: So guys who aren’t really sure of what that is, you talk about social support infrastructure here…
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah. Ooh, yeah. Yeah, Well… go ahead.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. How does that help with women and how does that help with the rest of your life to develop it, and how you build the support infrastructure?
[Christian Hudson]: Hmm. Well that's a great question. I think the important thing is to—it’s weird, I just came up with the right answer for this like about two weeks ago on another interview I was doing, because really what you’re talking about is building a group of friends who are going to support you, and the thing that I realized is that a lot of that has to do with your value and what you bring to the table. So if you’re like kind of a cool guy and/or you just are a good guy or you are a guy who really likes girls, you’re going to naturally start to connect with other people who are in that same category. If you look on Facebook, like I’ve got some friends in Facebook who are really into like pickup and they are always commenting on each other’s walls and like they’re friends. I know that like that friendship started to bridge into the real world. So it all comes down to really like what your values are, and that’s going to determine the type of people you attract. Believe it or not, and I think this is the first time I’ve ever like kind of come out on record and said this, I’m like really heavily rediscovering my faith. And I won’t talk too extensively about that, but in the last six months to a year I’ve been discovering my faith. I’ve been reconnecting with people who share my faith.
And that happened accidentally. It wasn’t something that I was like, “Oh, okay, now it’s time for God in my life and so I’m going to go out and find these people.” It was more like this is something that’s starting to develop and so a lot of the people who I was partying with a long time ago who were still really in that scene, their values and my values started to drift apart, you know, just kind of naturally, and I started to gradually connect with other people who were in the same place that I was. So it all really starts with what do you want and where are you in life. And I think that’s a hard thing to prescribe a guy because he's saying, “Well, okay, that’s fine. I want to go out and I want to meet friends,” or “I want to connect with people,” but it all really starts I have to say with knowing who you are and what you want out of life, and then it’s going to start to flow from there.
In terms of actually doing it, and if the guy is, [laughs] you know, not so interested in discovering the spirit to do all this in but in meeting a lot of women and really building out that part of his social life, a lot of it I think has to do with just going out and certainly finding their groups. I mean, that’s like a great way for guys to connect with each other. It can take a lot of sifting. I know that when you go through those layer groups and just meetup groups, like here in New York we have a ton of meetup groups for guys who are looking to go out and meet wingmen and new friends, it can take a lot of time. But another place that I always tell guys to meet guys is the gym, because not only are you getting into the gym, you’re getting fit, you’re in shape, as long as it’s not with like the gym rat who’s in there every day who’s like on steroids, if you go in there like you ask somebody for a spot, you get to know them a little bit, that’s a great place to meet other guys.
And the one other thing is meeting girls online. We’re getting close to rolling out a program about meeting girls online. I mean, if the guys have… like I’m just thinking, I’m trying to get some usable thoughts here. If a guy does not have a lot of girls in his life right now and he’s not in college or some other place where it’s like really easy to have a social life, the easiest way that I’ve found to drop into a new city or just change your situation is go onto a free dating site like OkCupid or Plenty of Fish, and just like start messaging girls. And I’ve actually made a lot of friends, I’ve been doing online dating, because the guy, Race, who I mentioned earlier, he’s building this whole system that I mentioned, and so I wanted to see what the whole thing was about. So I’ve been doing it, like, I’ve got a girlfriend for a while, I kind of told her what I was doing and what was going in, but I met a ton of cool girls down there, like a ton of really great new friends. So that can be a great really easy way to meet girls.
Yeah, I’m just trying to, you know, again, there’s a lot more we could say about this, but just to summarize, it all starts with your values and what you want, trying to find guys who are in a similar place in life, and two great places for that are meetup groups/layers and the gym. And then, if you want to meet girls and you’re not getting through your circle already, go online and see what you can find.
[Angel Donovan]: Great, great. So you brought up your faith, I’m assuming you’re talking like Christianity here.
[Christian Hudson]: Mm-hmm. Yes.
[Angel Donovan]: Right. Yeah, just quickly on that, because I guess it’s a topic that some guys might be curious about if they have faith, is any of this dating advice stuff incompatible with that? Is there anything you had to kind of like throw away or change or add?
[Christian Hudson]: Oh, wow. [Laughs] You know, I really struggle with that. I was talking… [laughs] because when I look at our marketing, for example, I look at some of the imagery we use and I’m like, okay, well, I know that there are certain people who would look at that and find it suggestive. In terms of the actual… it is hard to say because like… and I’ve talked with friends about this, about the whole like sex before marriage thing, and I’ve certainly [laughs]… but I talked with a friend about this who’s more advanced in his faith than I am and one of the things that he… I asked him about this. I said, “Well, how do you feel about having sex before marriage?” And he said, “Well, the way I look at it is it’s like my father has asked me to do something and I know that I’m disobeying him and I feel bad about it and it creates a rift between us.”
So that’s one of the biggies. I’m still sort of wrestling with that, to be honest with you. But I’ll tell you this. I’ve been through plenty of meaningless—I’ll just put it out there—I’ve had plenty of meaningless sex with girls who I wasn’t having fun with, and here’s the thing. Like I know some people who really enjoy that, and it’s hard for me to judge them for enjoying that because it’s so much a part of who they are and it’s not what I want for myself, but for people who really enjoy that, I’m not going to get in their way. I mean, I’ve got other fish to fry. But I think that personally where this started to matter for me was, frankly, I wanted to have a relationship with somebody who… that would have a little bit more depth, and this is something that has been important in my life for a long time, and so I started to realize, hey, I’ve got to redevelop this. Again, I’m not trying to dodge the question, so to speak. One day I’ll have a great answer to that, I hope, Angel.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Christian Hudson]: But right now I’m still trying to understand a little bit better myself.
[Angel Donovan]: That’s great. I don’t want to put you on the spot too much there.
[Christian Hudson]: No, it’s fine. It’s fine.
[Angel Donovan]: I’m it’s something that guys in a similar situation might be thinking about.
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah, well…
[Angel Donovan]: But you know, apart from the sex thing, what I really wanted to get out, is there any like dating advice, things that you do and you’ve taught that you’ve kind of like had a second thought about and said, “Actually, that thing that I normally advise people to do, I’m not going to advise people to do that anymore because… ”
[Christian Hudson]: Not too much. Not too much, and the reason for that is, and we can’t go into the whole curriculum here, but…
[Christian Hudson]: You were just asking me, is there anything that I stopped teaching?
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Christian Hudson]: I can re-answer that. I’ll start at the top and I’ll make it quick. You know, not really, actually, because it’s like we’re… I don’t know man, like we’re not really all about going out there and like slaying girls, in the sense of, like I’ve got this buddy, he’s had a lot of sex, like the words he uses, like, “I slayed these girls. I took them down.” Again, that’s never been kind of how we’ve come about this. We’ve always said like, “Okay, look, we’re just going to teach you skills. We’re going to help you find out what’s important.” And I think that that's the sort of client that we attract too.
I used to stress about this. I’d look at guys who were signing up for like Venusian Arts program or guys who study with certain other gurus who are a little bit more hard-edged, and I’d stress. I was like, oh man, we’re not getting that client, and that client’s like really enthusiastic about going out and hooking up with a lot of girls, so that’d be a good enthusiastic client. But then I realized that’s just not… like those aren’t guys who were as good at working with… Certainly, we want to work with guys who want to improve their social lives, and straight up, if a guy wants to go out and date a lot of girls, when you look at our forums and you hear about some of the clients who come through our stuff, like there are guys who sleep with a lot of girls after doing our stuff, I just really… I mean, ultimately, man, I want guys to be happy, to be able to connect with girls, and so there’s not a whole lot in our advice or in our curriculum that I feel needs to be taken away. But again, 10 years from now I may look back on this interview and be like, oh geez. But you just never know. I think that’s the thing about life, is you never know what direction it’s going to take you. Honestly, my job at this point is not to be like a pastor. I’m the farthest thing from that because I’m still trying to figure stuff out on my own. We’re here to help guys get better with girls and be happy with their single lives and their social lives. So, [laughs] for now, that’s what I want to stick with and focus on.
[Angel Donovan]: Great. So, let's take a step back on this. Like talking about support infrastructure again, so a guy goes out and he starts making a few friends, and starts meeting a few girls, so why should he be motivated to do that versus, say, going out to bars and cold approaching or something like that? What do you think is important about that and why would you encourage guys to take that approach?
[Christian Hudson]: Sure. Well, I think it’s a little bit of both, and honestly there are some guys who are going to be… there is a group of guys who are going to be great at going out to bars and just doing cold approaches. And I’m not saying that they shouldn’t do that anyway, but I’m saying that in addition to that they should have a group of people who are going to center them, because it’s kind of like sales, right? When you’re going out and you’re just doing cold approaches, it’s a high-rejection environment. And you can take the odds of rejection down from maybe a guy who’s not good at all is being rejected nine out of ten times, you can take that down to like four, maybe three, depending on where you’re going and how good you are and how well you’re put together and a lot of factors you can work in your favor. But you’re still… every time you step to the plate, you’re facing the potential of rejection. And more importantly, it’s just like, how many people are you going to have in your life who are meaningful relationships and how many people are you going to have in your life who are like transient relationships? And I find that the meaningful relationships are the ones that we can always come back to, and those are what build confidence. Those are what give us value in the sense of who we are. And the more that we have a sense of who we are, the more confident we can be when we approach other people.
Like, if I’ve got five of my best friends with me and we’re having a great time when we’re out at the bar, I’m so much more likely to carry that vibe over into the interaction I have with a girl who I see across from the bar than if… I could give you an example. The girl that I’m dating right now, I met her… she was doing a photo shoot in my apartment. This girl is like stunning. She’s like 6 feet, absolutely drop dead gorgeous. I would have been scared to hell if I had to meet her like through a cold approach. And I’ve met girls like this through cold approaches before, probably bumbled through it, but the fact that she was in my apartment, I was sitting around with like four of my friends, it was like a Sunday afternoon, we’re getting brunch, we’re all having fun, just that whole… the fact that I was there with my friends like in my environment, my people around me, and then this person happened to step into it, my vibe is probably, I would guess, a lot more confident, and as she puts it, like even a little cocky.
So that’s not to say that you can’t do it without your friends. All I’m saying is that I feel like life is a great group activity and it’s not something to be done solo, and so when you’ve got good people around you and when you’ve got people who remind you of who you are, give you so much more power… and I know there are these diehard guys who are like, “No, go out, cold approach, do it alone, be a man of steel,” and again, there are some people who are emotionally and mechanically wired for that, but that’s...majority of the clients I know we work with at least, they’re happier when they have friends and when everybody’s supporting each other and that’s all clicking. So I think that’s why it’s important. Does that answer your question?
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, and there’s something I kind of think about often, I’ll swing it by you and see kind of what you think.
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: With respect to this kind of like building your support infrastructure or building your social connections, and I were to think of it like to take a business example, it’s the difference between an expense and an investment and an asset, right?
[Christian Hudson]: Mm-hmm.
[Angel Donovan]: The asset, it grows over time…
[Christian Hudson]: Right, exactly.
[Angel Donovan]: … and it adds value to your life and to other people, whereas the expense disappears and that money’s gone and you’re never going to get anything out of it next month or a year later. Is that something you think about or… ?
[Christian Hudson]: Right, exactly. Absolutely. Well, I just had this conversation with a buddy of mine who coincidentally is over at PUA training, and which might I add is a great group of guys, really cool people, but he and I were just talking about how the notion of cold approaching is kind of like you’re starting over day after day after day. The danger in that, of course, is that you can get so comfortable that you do not push yourself. It’s kind of like the guy who, how I can put it… what you don’t want to be is you don’t want to become the guy who puts 50,000 dollars in the stock market and then sees it grow. Sorry, he pulls it out of the stock market and he puts it into like 2% money market account and then he sees it grow like gradually over the rest of his life. You want to take some risks. You want to put in some high-risk stocks. You want to every now and then like… you want to have your baseline, but you want to go out there and take some risks, too, until you’ve invested in Google, which I guess would be getting married to the woman of your dreams. [Laughs]
But yeah, it’s like you just can’t let it… and it goes both ways, right? You absolutely want to be investing in an appreciating asset, but at the same time you don’t want to let that be an excuse not to take some risks. Because that’s happened to me. I don’t know if it’s happened to you, but I know in my life there are some times when I’ve become very complacent, and then I realize it’s been like, if I’m out of a… there’s one time, man, I was out of a relationship for like six months and I realized I did not cold approach one girl. I’ve got a lot of friends and I was like talking to people, but I wasn’t like talking to girls I actually wanted to talk to, and when I had to do it I was like so scared. I’ve been doing this for so long now, but I was so scared the first cold approach I did after all that time. So I think you just have to balance it out and remind yourself that, hey, take the risks if you haven’t for a while and if life’s getting too boring.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, of course. It’s always easy to get kind of into a routine with your social life and get comfortable, and soon as you get comfortable you feel like you don’t have to make an effort, but you’re really always missing out because there’s always opportunity to expand…
[Christian Hudson]: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: Well, great. So another thing I wanted to talk about, which you’ve kind of like talked about a little bit but I know is kind of a big thing with you guys because it was kind of the big focus in Unbreakable is really talking about emotions and emotional states. I noticed you talking about getting your clients into emotional states. And the one thing I remember quite clearly about Unbreakable was that most of the program was focused on emotions, whether it be the guy or the girl. So, could you talk a bit about the importance of that and kind of what it means the way you think about doing things?
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah. That’s really interesting you caught that because a lot of people… and obviously you’re like wicked smart about this stuff, but honestly, like some people don’t catch that, that that's what the context of the program is about. So that’s cool. And in terms of why that’s important, I mean, I just think like, how can I put this, like I’m going to try not to get too philosophical but I just feel like in our lives, we go through our lives and we do all sorts of things to be happy, you know, from the clothes we buy to programs we watch to all that, like we do them to have emotional experiences, and it’s like people get jaded around emotional experiences because they get hurt. You get the girl who like, the saddest thing in the world, like the girl who’s been going out to the club for like six years and the first few times she went out she was like, “Oh, that’s amazing,” and then like six years later she’s just like jaded as hell because she hasn’t met many cool guys. And that initial emotional experience she had that was really fun and exciting, like she hasn’t realized that she has to move on forward and like seek something new that’s going to make her happy again. But it’s always like we’re just seeking happiness in our lives, and so there’s kind of an emotional model that we like to think about when you’re starting to get to know somebody that we don’t want to be too rigid about it, because certainly you can meet people in other ways, but the emotional model that we talked about in Unbreakable is like that you kind of go from like fun to flirty to like deep to intimate.
[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.
[Christian Hudson]: So when you start talking to somebody, it should be a fun conversation. It should just be lighthearted, a little bit of banter back and forth. Maybe you’re just talking about something that it’s fun for you, and if you are in like a fun emotional place, then you can start to bring other people into that. It doesn’t work all the time. Again, the bitchy club girl, if you just walk up to her and you’re like what's your college or a giggling… like she’s going to tell you to remove yourself. [Laughs] But if you’re having fun, nine times out of ten, other people want to be a part of that. So you start having fun, then you get a little flirty, and there are ways and techniques and mechanisms that you can start to flirt with people, and that’s kind of like fun but it’s interpersonal fun. It’s like you and her having fun together and being with witty together. And that can last for a while. And then we like to say that you get deep with a person, and that’s kind of like, that’s what they like call deep rapport or connection building, and that’s where you’re really talking with each other about life and about experiences and you’re being honest, you’re opening up, and then you get intimate, which is like deep plus like sexual. And so that’s when you escalate it.
And when we came over this model, I don’t think it’s the perfect model, but then again, I don’t think that there’s any perfect model. I just think it’s a good way to think about approaching interactions and a pretty common way that two people come together. And if I’m feeling like… and this happens all the time, because I’m a deep thinker. I’ll go out after having read like a book and I’ll be in a deep emotional state because I’m really into this book and like, oh, this is so cool, whatever. Maybe it’s a fluffy book or whatever, like I’m in some emotional state that is not conducive to socializing, and so I have to almost reset a little bit. It’s not all about state, but I just want to remind myself, okay, have fun tonight. Lighten up, get lighthearted. Nobody is out at this bar to like hear about philosophy at this very moment. They might be at some point when I get to know them, but for now, no.
So that’s how we start to think about it, is if we can start having good emotions with people, if we can start having a good emotional exchange with people, then that can guide us and that can guide our techniques, and that can guide us closer to people. It doesn’t work 100% of the time but it’s what I’ve found to be the sort of centering point around which all my good interactions have happened, is if I’m in a good emotional place, they all flow from there.
[Angel Donovan]: Great. So what you’re saying basically is like fun, a fun state, if you’re having fun, is the easiest way to start talking and get someone else in that state. Is it kind of like you’re leading, like if you’re the one that has the fun state, then the other person normally kind of like… the girl’s going to go along with that? Is that kind of how that works?
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah, well, I mean it might extend, certainly. And there’s got to be… I mean, look, you’ve got to have the game “to back it up” or you’ve got to be able to vibe with that. But I just think for most guys, like I would never tell a guy who is just getting started like, hey, go approach the two hottest girls in the bar who have their back turned to everybody, who are really attractive and who’ve been rejecting everybody all night. I wouldn’t tell him go approach them and be fun. [Laughs] Like that would be pretty advice. But I tell most guys who are trying to get better at this stuff, if you bring a fun emotional state out with you and if you’re enjoying yourself, then other people want to be a part of that.
And you know, we have these goofy little terms for things. We have something called the bro circle. And it never fails. Nick always does this when he’s running events. We’ll get like three guys together and they’ll bro up, and they’ll just stand there in the bar making eye contact with no one else except each other and like having the time of their lives. And sometimes they’ll even joke like, “Oh, we’re in a bro circle right now. We start walking somewhere and we’ll turn into a bro caravan.” And it’s goofy terminology, but the point is they’re having fun with each other. And magically, girls appear. They see these guys having fun and they start to appear, and then great things happen.
And it may not be like the hottest girls who appear there, it may not be that those two girls who are sitting in the corner like taking guys down, but women will appear near the bro circle because they can see that these guys are just talking to each other, they’re having fun, they’re laughing, they’re telling jokes, they’re toasting their beers, whatever, and women want to be a part of that. So they’ll start to, I think the word would be proximity, they’ll increase their proximity, and then from they usually just will turn around, will open to somebody, will get the eye contact, and then it starts to roll from there. So now we’ve got some eye contact, we open the conversation up. It can be as simple as a hi. And these girls, you can tell, they want to have fun too, so you just bring them into it whether it be whatever you were just talking about or you could compliment them. But the point is you’re projecting good emotions and they’re feeling that too. Now you can start bringing them in. And, I mean, as it relates to intense pickup and social management, you really want those two girls in the corner, the social proof you’re going to get from having a good time and from having girls kind of attracted to you and from just enjoying yourself is… that’s huge. I mean, I know there are little tricks and hacks and whatnot that guys come up with like to go talk to those girls, but, again, in a general environment, for most guys, we want to just to start with something as simple as what I described to you, and man, it works like a charm.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. It is pretty straightforward. And then from there, to make the jump from having fun with someone to start flirting is the easiest route, is that what you’re kind of saying?
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah, absolutely. If you want I can give you a very specific example of how I would do that. Do we have the time to?
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Great.
[Christian Hudson]: Okay, cool. So this is actually… there’s no term for the technique except I jokingly like call it instant attraction, because every technique needs a term. Okay, so here’s how it goes. You’re telling a story to a girl and you say… I always get compliments about this because my story is really good. Most guys don’t have it, not to brag, it’s just I got drunk when I came out the other end with a really good story. [Laughs] So, basically, here’s how it would go if I was talking to a girl. I’d be like, “Oh man, like it’s so warm right now. This just reminds me of my last tropical vacation.” Or if it’s cold outside, I’ll be like, “Oh, it’s so cold. I need to take a vacation somewhere warm in the tropics.” And she’ll be like, “Yeah, I know.” I’m like, “Yeah, so where is the last place you went? And she’ll start telling you about the last tropical vacation she took, and then typically I'll get her to ask me about my vacation, maybe I’ll bait it in. I’ll be like, “Oh yeah, that sounds like the last one I took.” I’m just trying to get her to ask me. I’ll be like, “Well, the last one I took, I just went to the Dominican with my parents, but the craziest one I took,” see, I’m just trying to get past in and get to my story, “the craziest one I took though, I got drunk one Sunday night and the next morning I ended up in Mexico.” And the girl would be like, “Wait, what?” And I’ll be like, “Yeah, you know.”
And by the way, you notice what I’m doing here, like this nuance, I’m not getting giving all information right up front. I’m like, I got drunk, I ended up in Mexico. And I’ll tell the story little more, I’ll say, “Yeah, my friend Alice, she like just got hammered at karaoke, 2:30 a.m. she’s like, ‘Let’s go to Mexico right now,’ and we packed, grabbed our passports and brought our tickets.” And the story will go on a little bit, but based on her interest level and how her body language is.
[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.
[Christian Hudson]: And then I’ll end the story… now here’s the key point. And for anybody listening to this, I’ll end the story by saying, “Yeah, it was one of the most spontaneous things I’ve ever done in my life.” And she’ll be like, “Yeah, yeah.” When you end the story, you end it with the personality traits that drove it, right? So I’m like, “Oh yeah, like it was spontaneous.” So if you’ve got a story about being spontaneous or adventurous or if it’s fun or whatever, that’s really a good story to leave off a conversation with. And I’ll say to her, “So what’s something really spontaneous that you’ve done in your life?” And I never say “what’s the most,” I just say “what’s something really,” because nobody can ever compete with that story. So I just want something.
And I’ll give you an example from this girl who I… this is one that always stands out to me. She was like, “Yeah, I was at this concert in New Jersey one time and my friend and I were like, ‘Yeah, we really want lobster,’ and so we drove up Boston. We just like left the concert and we drove up to Boston and we got lobster.” And so we vibe off the story for a little bit. I’m like, “Oh, that’s awesome, like what kind of lobster? How was it prepared? Blah, blah, blah, this and that.” So I’m letting her open up and this is… it’s still kind of fun. Now here’s where I’m getting to starting flirty, is I’m going to say, “Well, I’ll tell you what. Here’s what’s going to happen. Tonight, we’re going to get crazy drunk, we’re going to wake up in Mexico and we’re going to go skin diving for lobsters, and it’s going to be like the wildest, most spontaneous night of our life and we’ll be the wildest, most spontaneous couple that any of our friends know.”
So, essentially, I’m taking her story and my story, putting them together into a future projection and creating a little adventure for both of us to have together, and now that’s when it gets flirty, and she’s going to be like “Oh, that sounds so much fun.” I’ll be like, “Okay, look, I’ll get the shots as long as you get the tickets, or you get the shots, I’ll take care of the flight, but we definitely need some shots right now. So, what are you drinking?” So, I mean, if you’re not in a bar you don’t have deal with the shots.
[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]
[Christian Hudson]: But that’s sort of a three-step process. So again, just to summarize it, you tell a story, end it with a personality trait, ask her something that she has done that was driven by that personality trait, vibe off the story for a bit, and then end it by saying… by doing a future production and combining the two stories together so that you guys are the most spontaneous or playful or fun or dynamic couple in the world and do amazing things. And like right within… I’ve done that so many times now, it’s almost a routine except it requires their input and it requires a little bit of flexibility. I do not tell the Mexico story every time. But I’ve done that so many times now and immediately, you do that future production and like bam, you’re off to the races and you’ve got some great story to tell all your friends about this girl who you’re going to Mexico with that night. So that’s how you would take it from fun to flirty. That’s like a very easy transition once you practice it a few times. It’s not that hard but it’s not something that like you’ve got to consciously apply it. You can’t just memorize and go out there. You’ve got to constantly think to yourself, like, “I’m going to go through this transition.” The guys who do that, like I know plenty of clients who we taught do that and like when they actually teach themselves to do it, like it’s magic every time.
[Angel Donovan]: Awesome. So, basically, the flirting comes in when you’re insinuating that you’re both a couple and you’re doing things together.
[Christian Hudson]: Right.
[Angel Donovan]: So some guys are going to think, “Well, that’s kind of a risky thing to do.” Like I’m just saying because it’s already a fun vibe, you know?
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah. Yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: But nine out of ten times she’s just going to go along with it, because you are just having fun.
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah… no, I’ve never had that. I’ve never had that go wrong. I mean, the only time, this is really funny, and I’ve done this so many times, but the only time that like went wrong on me or whatever was this girl I was demonstrating it for a client. He was like right there and this girl was not like, how can I put this, I don’t think she was used to getting that much male attention, and for whatever reason I think that her bullshit meter went off and she was like…
[Angel Donovan]: Right.
[Christian Hudson]: She was like, “This guy’s gaming me.” So, she was a very smart girl. She goes… [laughs] I was like, “So what’s something really spontaneous you’ve done?” She’s like, “Okay, you want to hear something spontaneous I’ve done?” I’m like, “Yeah, yeah.” She says, ”Okay, I’ll tell you what. We’re about to leave this bar and go to the next one. If you are at the next bar, I will tell you a really spontaneous, fun story.” But she wouldn’t give it to me right off the bat. She wanted to make sure that I was going to bounce with her to the next bar, and I did not.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Christian Hudson]: But other than that, man, that whole future projection thing, like if you’re having fun with it, especially… and here’s the key part, and this is a challenge that a lot of guys who are newbies or whatever have, I’m sure… I don’t know if you went through this phase, I sure as hell did, is like when you’re learning something like that, you’re so in your head about getting to the outcome that you don’t allow it to organically progress, you kind of force it along, and the challenge in that is you really have to let her tell her story at her own pace and you have to let her open up… I mean, the version that I just told you, that lobster story ended up taking like 20 minutes. From the time she started telling me we were at this concert to the time I did the future projection thing, it was like 20 minutes of her just telling me about lobster and me talking about lobster BLTs and we’re talking about how lobster used to be considered, like back in the day lobster was like a rodent of the seas. We were like talking about all this stuff about lobster for 20 minutes. And that’s the biggest risk that a guy can have, is like missing the opportunity to really vibe with a girl and just enjoy that part of the interaction. But if he can do that… that’s the hardest skill to learn, I think, is getting out of your head and allowing it to be what it is, and then gently push it along when it needs a push.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, right, and there is something to highlight there. I kind of noticed you like pay attention to how down-to-earth this kind of approach is. That’s something I also noticed about Unbreakable, you guys have made a lot of effort to make appropriate all your stuff a lot more down to earth than some other guys who make it, oh, I guess like more aggressive and a bit more out there compared to like normal general conversations, but it kind of takes away from the importance of just like talking about lobsters for a while and taking that opportunity to develop the relationship, and that’s like something I think you guys really did, emphasized that down-to-earth approach and you can just be normal for a while. Also, you don’t always have to be trying to attract someone.
[Christian Hudson]: Right, right, right. And you know, that’s whenever I get into trouble, is when I try to attract somebody too much too hard. But I really appreciate that. I mean, we… and again, different guys have different attitudes. It’s funny, my buddy Josh, Josh Pellicer, like brilliant guy, a year from now he’s going to come out with a program about, I think he’s going to call it Hacking Attraction. You’ve got to look at this when it comes out because he’s like so smart and nobody knows about him. I just sat in on a seminar he gave and he was talking about personality types, and he very accurately like personality-typed me and a whole bunch of other people in the room. And the point he made, and it just so resonated with me, he was like, “Look, different personality types like different… they have different styles of interacting with people, and a lot of the pickup industry is about taking introverted guys and trying to make them extroverted. And no matter how much… it’s like one of two things happen in that environment. Either you get a guy who like shuts down and just runs away from that it’s like, “To hell with this, I can’t do it,” or you get guys who like push so far to the extreme of extroversion that it’s almost like an avoidance strategy of being introverted, and they don’t want to like admit they’re introverted so they become like really out there. And then you have the natural extroverts who they just haven’t ever had the skills or maybe their friends or what have you and then they just come in and it starts working for them. But I think that it’s important to… my whole attitude has been like if something doesn’t feel right for a long time and you keep trying it and trying it and trying it and it still doesn’t feel right, then it’s probably not right for you. Like I know for me, no matter how many times I cold approach a girl, if I’m doing it because I feel like I need to cold approach rather than just I’m in an environment I’m enjoying myself and I see somebody I want to talk to, like if I’m forcing myself to go out and approach women, it feels wrong. And there are some people who love it and some people don’t, so I think it’s kind of all about finding environments and people who you connect with and what gives you your power. And again, I really appreciate you saying we’re down-to-earth. I know there are some guys who really connect with that and there are others who are like, “I need more harsh shit,” or like, “I want like more extreme pickup,” I don’t know. But yeah…
[Angel Donovan]: Sometimes it can be easier than you think it’s going to be, right? It doesn’t necessarily take anything amazing to attract a girl and start being in a relationship with her, like just if you think different…
[Christian Hudson]: Absolutely. Every time I overthink it, like right now as we talk about this, I’m in a phase where I’m going back and I’m actually reworking a fair amount of what’s in Unbreakable and I’m putting together a whole… like the way I look at Unbreakable, and I hate to use this term because it’s been used before by another product, but I like to think of it as kind of a blueprint for being an attractive guy, and then there are skills behind that, like conversation skills, vibing and flirting and bantering, storytelling, and escalating, and all that stuff. I’ve been like very analytical for the past, geez, probably the past like three months, and really breaking down like, okay, what do I do? What does Nick do? What does… like the people who are really close to me. But get this stuff down. And like I think it’s made me weirder [laughs] for the past like three months or something. I just feel like I’m a lot of more in my head, and that’s never a good place to be, so I’m looking forward to kind of having that all out there. But yeah, it’s a nonstop process and I think for a guy listening to this, no matter where you are, it’s like you just have to recognize that there are points when you’re going to be assimilating a lot of information but there’s a lot of times when you have to go out there and stumble and fall on your feet and like get better and then come back and reassimilate some more, and it’s a nonstop process of like action and reflection and action and reflection.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah. So, that’s just how the stuff goes.
[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah. And one of the things I think you’re going with and I believe in too is like you have to do this stuff quite a few times. You have to… not like practice, but just go out and experience a lot before it becomes natural, by getting out of your head. And it does become more natural, and so guys have to kind of push through that.
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah, and you know the other thing, and I know I’ve been talking a lot, but the one other thing that I see a lot, and tell me if this augurs with your experience, is like you get guys… and this was me for a long time, I’ll be honest. It’s like I was having really good, successful girls and I was dating some like stunningly beautiful girls, and then we’d break up and I’d go back to being like a shell of a man. [Laughs] I came from a place, it’s funny, like I’ve always… ever since I was 18 I’ve had like really attractive girlfriends, but I like didn’t have this like core of self-belief. And I’ve come to learn where that comes from, and it’s nothing like deep and dark. It’s just the way my personality works. I need to feel a certain amount of stability and control over my life before I have like confidence. I have to like understand the situation. I can’t personally walk into the situation and like just be confident, like I have to understand it first, and that’s just how I’m wired.
But it’s funny because I was like, I’d break up with these girls and then I’d go back to being this kind of like shell of a man, and even though I was having success you might call it, like the belief that I was an attractive guy was not sticking with me. So it’s not… I don’t mean to correct you but it’s more of like… and I also see guys who… it’s like they’ll have success, but it’ll happen really quickly and then they still got this belief about themselves that they’re not naturally attractive, and that gets in the way of them good relationships when they actually want those.
[Angel Donovan]: Right. Yeah, that’s great. So, I mean, like building your support infrastructure, does it help with all of this, help to make it more natural and to get it more into your head?
[Christian Hudson]: Oh, geez. Well, it just depends on who those people are.
[Angel Donovan]: Yes.
[Christian Hudson]: I think, again, like… well, here’s one example, right? It’s like, and when I say support infrastructure, I mean like your family too, even.
[Angel Donovan]: Uh-huh.
[Christian Hudson]: Like… I don’t talk with my mom about pickup, [laughs] but like certainly some of your friends, those people, and even girls in your life. People like that, if you’re able to be very honest with them about, hey, I’m having this problem right now or this is something I’m dealing with and I’m not quite sure what’s going on, if you can have honest conversations with those people and you know that they know you, like and they fully accept you not because… you know, they’re not like transitory friends, they’re not like bullshit friends…
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Christian Hudson]: … like they’re there for you, you know, they’ll tell you. And I’ve had friends tell me like, “Hey, you’re off the beaten track here.” And they’re always, “It’s cool.” They’re always great about it. So I think that the important thing though is you’ve got to have those authentic relationships. And if you don’t feel like you can be really honest with your friends and they don’t really know you, then when the time comes for you to ask for that help or ask for that thought, you’re not going to get an honest answer.
But yeah, I mean in terms of… you know, look, I’ll say this. Like it makes me so happy when like, okay, it’ll be a Saturday night and we’re taking clients that we never… like at this point, we never take out more than like two or three clients on a given weekend, we keep the late show really, really small, but it makes me so happy when one of my good buddies calls me up and he’s like, “Hey, do you mind if I join this evening?” My buddies have like been out to our events before. They’ve seen the whole thing. And they’ll even tell me, like I’ve got a bunch of friends who work in finance and they’ll be like, “Yo man, what’s going on with you tonight? Your body language is way off.” So they all know it and it’s funny, and they’ll tell me what’s going on.
But yeah, just… you know, look, thinking at a broader level, I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on this because you’re like kind of at the epicenter of seeing all of these dating advice products, my thoughts being, and whatever periphery I’m at, is like, this is as much a movement as it is anything else. It’s like guys finding a way to connect with each other, building a common dialogue, and… I mean, I was watching Sleepless in Seattle tonight with my girlfriend, and like there’s a scene where Rob Reiner and Tom Hanks are talking with each other about like, they’re talking about dating, and they’re just talking about, well here’s what you do, and like girls are going to ask you for tiramisu, and Tom Hanks is like, “What’s tiramisu? Is it something I have to do?” They’re having a dialogue about dating, and what we’re all doing is we’re having a dialogue about dating. We’re finally getting smart about it and we’re finally like… women have read Cosmo for years, we’re going to give ourselves something. We’re going to have a dialogue about it. So even like guys who aren’t in the community, when you start introducing this stuff to them in a way that’s not weird but it’s like just, hey, we’re all single guys and like let’s figure out how to get hotter girls or be happy with the girls we have. [Laughs] Yeah, they want to talk about that. So I think it’s really cool and it’s growing and growing and growing, you know?
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I guess the whole movement is really getting away from the macho guy image who can’t talk about this stuff, right?
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: It’s applied self-help to dating and it’s got guys out of their shell, and it’s made it more socially acceptable for guys to talk about this stuff.
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah, yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: Is there anything you wanted to add kind of as a last thing?
[Christian Hudson]: Yeah, there’s one technique that I can share that I think is like really cool…
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Christian Hudson]: … and maybe that’ll be a good like sendoff. And this is something that you have to be careful with, but if you do it right, oh, it’s so great. And the whole notion is this. Well, the theory behind it is this. It’s that if you can get girls to invest in you, then you’re making headway. Very basic premise. And if you… traditionally, the whole notion is if you demonstrate high value, you’ll like get investment.
So a lot of guys go out there and they tell these stories to like demonstrate high value, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t, but it doesn’t like guarantee the girl is going to invest. So you have to ask her, and actually the way that I ended my story of what something spontaneous you’ve done, I mean, I’m trying to get a small investment right there. But, you can get like sneakier than that, right?
So here’s an example. Let’s say that what I want to do is I want to act for something really big but I don’t actually expect it. So this would be getting her to invest in me in like an absurd way. So, here’s the example I can give you. One time I sent a text to this girl. I happened to be in Michigan. It was like cold as hell, it was in the winter. And I sent a text to this girl I knew in California, and I was like, “Hey, it’s like hella cold here in Michigan. Can you come pick me up after work and drive me to beach?”
So, another one, I just got off this date with this girl and I got like sick the next day, and I texted her. And the next day I was like, “Oh, I’m really sick right now,” and she’s like, “Oh, poor baby. So sorry.” And I was like, “Can you please bring over like a big bowl of chicken noodle soup and five movies for me to watch?” And like it was a first date, like I didn’t expect her to bring over… like we’d only been out once. I didn’t expect her to bring over chicken noodle soup and a bunch of movies. And she was… like I don’t know if you know Manhattan, but like at the time I was in SoHo and she was on the Upper Westside, and that’s a 20-dollar cab ride, which is a long way in Manhattan. So I didn’t expect her to do it for all those reasons, but it was a big absurd request, and the next time I saw her she actually like kind of felt bad about not bringing me chicken noodle soup. And the girl in California, she wrote back and she was like, “Sleep well,” like, “I can’t come pick you up today, it’s a little bit busy, but if you end up getting out here soon like, there’s definitely a spot for you.”
So it’s flirty, right? You’re being flirty and you’re being silly, but it’s also asking for something that’s so big that there’s no way they could fill it, but it’s okay to ask because it’s like funny in the way that you’re asking it. So you’re asking for them to do something but it’s such an absurd request.
Another way that I will do this is I will use a third party to imply that people invest in me. So if somebody said to me like, “Oh, what’s your favorite restaurant in town?” I’d be like, “Well, okay, I love sushi, so I love Nobu, but if somebody is really going to spoil me, they’re going to take me to Megu.” So I’ve just used a third party. And who knows who the third party is, but there’s somebody who’s really going to spoil me. And this implies that people spoil me.
I’ll talk to a girl in a conversation. I’ll be like, “Okay, so I have to know, like back scratches or back rub?” and she’ll say whatever she said, and I’ll be like, “Okay.” And she’ll ask me, like, “Well, like I have to tell you, like whenever somebody really wants to get on my good side, like back scratch is the way.” So, again, very subtle, but it’s implying that people want to get on your good side, that people want to spoil you and take you out. And by using this third party, again, you’re implying that people invest in you. Whenever you say something like that, “Oh, somebody really wants to spoil me, they’ll take me to Megu,” like nine times out of ten a girl will respond like, oh, she can spoil you. And I’d be like, Oh, you know, every now and then like I’d wink at them right away or give them the right back rub. You know, like it's flirty, right? Now you’re back on and, “What? People don’t spoil you? When was the last time somebody took you out, girl?”
So yeah, this little tiny technique has so much it does in terms of both creating flirtiness and also setting you up as like a guy who people treat. Like I learned this from a girl I dated who had some of the best guy game I’ve ever seen, or girl game, or whatever you… yeah, I think it’s called girl game. And she did this nonstop. I saw her doing it to me, I saw her doing it to other people, and it was like so funny. She was always like propping herself, but it was not like in a way where you’re like offended and obnoxious. It’s just like, “Wow, do people do that for you?” But it was never like… yeah, it was just really funny.
And so I learned this all from her and started using it myself. I started using it on her actually and [laughs] it just got really interesting. It was like all of a sudden like this thing clicked between us and it’s like ever since then I’ve been doing this stuff to other people, it became part of my personality, and it’s like whoa, people respond to this. So it’s helpful if you are a high-value person. It’s helpful if people do spoil you or you have that happen to you, but yeah, it’s fun stuff to use.
So just to recap again on the techniques, either being absurd about it when you ask for something, like asking for them to, I don’t know, when you’re at a bar with them, be like, “Hey, I’m so hungry right now, like I would love it if you went to In and Out Burger.” She’s like, “But In and Out is in California.” “I know, but New York is not that far from California. It’s cheap, like you go to In and Out and get me a burger.” It’s like it’s just fun, right? It creates this notion of like, “They’re never going to do that.” They’re like, “Okay, well, you can take care of crepes later tonight then or pizza delivery.”
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Christian Hudson]: Using absurdity or, yeah, using that third party, the person who spoils me, the person who wants to get on my good side, whenever they ask an opinion on some things, just throwing that out there. People will love it and will have fun with it. They’ll think you’re an awesome guy, and that's what… hey, like the more you do that stuff the more people treat you like you are and the more awesome you become.
[Angel Donovan]: Thanks for that Christian. That’s a great thing to round off this interview. And we really had some great stuff in this interview so, guys, like whatever questions have about it, ask them on the forum and we can talk more about it, and if there's anything you don’t get, any terminology or anything like that, you can do the same. But Christian, great having you here today.
[Christian Hudson]: No, thank you so much.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, hopefully we can speak some other time soon.
[Christian Hudson]: I would love that, Angel. Alright, well, thank you, and for everybody who stuck around and still listening, thank you, and hopefully I’ll have the chance to connect with some of you all.
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DSR Podcast is a weekly podcast where Angel Donovan seeks out and interviews the best experts he can find from bestselling authors, to the most experienced people with extreme dating lifestyles. The interviews were created by Angel Donovan to help you improve yourself as men - by mastering dating, sex and relationships skills and get the dating life you aspire to.
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