Ep. #52 Does Your Testosterone Level Impact Your Dating Life? with Christopher Walker

[Angel Donovan]: So Christopher Walker, does this name get you into a bit of trouble?

[Christopher Walker]: Oh with , with the Christopher Walken thing?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I tried to Google you and it’s...

[Christopher Walker]: Oh, yeah. ..it’s not easy, you’ve got to wade through pages and use lots of keywords and stuff.

[Christopher Walker]: Well, he’s given me a life goal to go after—to beat him in Google.

[Angel Donovan]: You got it cut out for you because he’s been out for a while hasn’t he? He’s built up a whole stack of internet pages.

[Christopher Walker]: Oh yeah. Well it gets me a lot of hits on stuff, when people find me while searching for him...

[Angel Donovan]: Oh yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: If you do a Google search for me, you’ll see – shirtless pics and stuff, so if you search for Christopher Walken, I think it still shows up as Christopher Walker model.

[Christopher Walker]: Or one of the – some of the Google images searches will show six pack ab shots or something and it ends up getting – I get a decent amount of search traffic from Christopher Walken. So I have him to thank. So it’s pretty...

[Angel Donovan]: That’s great because -- I know I was always, if I’m going to launch a new service or anything or, pick a podcast name or whatever I’m always is there anything out there already because, it can confuse things and everything. But it’s good to hear it’s working out for you positively. That’s pretty cool.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, and plus I like him as a [audio noise 05:54]. So he – and just being in LA and Hollywood,, everyone I meet they’re like "Oh, what’s your name?" It’s like "Oh, Christopher Walker." And they’re like "Oh my gosh. That’s a great name."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: People will put two and two together and they’re just like "That’s a, strong name." I’m like "All right. Whatever." It’s a good thing.

[Angel Donovan]: So what is your background? How did you get into all of this testosterone stuff? Was it by accident or what happened?

[Christopher Walker]: it. It was, I guess, a bit serendipitous, but it was also very deliberate. So if that makes sense, both things could happen at once. So essentially, I, my sophomore year of college, I was diagnosed with a brain tumor in my pituitary gland and , it – one of the biggest things it was doing was blocking my testosterone. It was like having a, for a visual, it’s like having a, a rock in a funnel.

It was just sitting there blocking -- because the pituitary gland -- for people who don’t know it -- sits right at the seat of your brain where it -- essentially -- it manipulates the endocrine system and it really controls the endocrine system and that’s, the system that controls the hormones in your body.

So your pituitary gland is what communicates with your endocrine system to tell it what to do.

[Angel Donovan]: {Hm}.

[Christopher Walker]: So, I had this tumor that was blocking, the secretion of actually quite a few hormones. (Uh}, but as a 19-year old male, all I cared about was testosterone because I was like "Oh, my gosh, my testosterone is basically zero." And, I’m really feeling the effects. I felt—I was depressed, I had anxiety.

[Angel Donovan]: {Hm}.

[Christopher Walker]: I was, rapidly fluctuating in my body fat and my weight {Angel-uh-huh} with -- really, I had the obvious weird swings. I’d be -- at one point I was super skinny. At one point I had 33% body fat. So it was really a crazy period of my life.

[Christopher Walker]: And, luckily I was in college and I was in -- I was pre-med at that point and when I got diagnosed, I was all right {I’ma} be a neuroscience major.

So, I used my degree in neuroscience to figure out how to change my problem naturally.

And that was basically using natural means to increase my testosterone and to, get over this brain tumor issue because , when I -- the tumor itself was not cancerous, or is not. I still have it actually.

[Angel Donovan]: So is it you’re saying it’s not malignant, right. It’s just a benign tumor.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah because it’s — when you say tumor, I think everyone’s like "Oh my god! When’s he gonna die?" But , if it’s benign then it’s -- you can have it for life, right. It’s not a problem.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. It, and the issue is with this specific type of tumor, {Angel- um} , it’s -- it can be a hit or miss. and that can also fluctuate, so we have to monitor it. Every six months or so, I’d get an MRI to , to make sure it’s not growing.

[Christopher Walker]: But, I was, faced with the choice of, either getting it removed immediately or just doing what I’m doing right now, monitoring it and then going on some a hormone therapy.

so I chose to not get the surgery because I actually had a friend in college who had the same tumor...

[Angel Donovan]: Oh wow.

[Christopher Walker]: ...and , it was actually pressing on her optic, {s-}, optic nerve or something. It-basically, it was , messing with her eyesight... [Christopher Walker]: ...with , which is another common thing with pituitary tumors. And so there’s some risk there with your eyesight. It can give you really bad headaches.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: But she got it removed and , there was a bit of an issue and she was a little bit different afterward, a lot more anxious and, just slightly off.

So I was a bit scared about the tumor, -- getting it removed, so I just thought "Okay, there’s -- no, I’m gonna play the odds here and just try to [audio 09:50] this out on my own. I'm a capable guy, I can figure this out.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: So ...

[Angel Donovan]: That’s a great attitude man. So , it’s -- I think it seems like this is more common because, you've known a girl who has this and one of my ex-girlfriends had this , right next to the pituitary gland also. And she used to get headaches and so, I don’t know if it’s pretty common, but , that’s...

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, I think they are pretty common actually. I would actually, —it’s — I have this theory that a lot of, issues that people have that they think are psychological...

[Christopher Walker]: ...are actually really biologically-based. I think...

[Angel Donovan]: I totally agree with you there, 100%, yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: There -- and we, yeah we were talking about this, earlier before we started recording about how people really need to start addressing their biology a lot more.

There’s—because really a lot of behavioral things are rooted in biology. So I would say -- essentially, with the—the fact that we know pituitary tumors are actually pretty common— they have a wide range of effects on people...

[Christopher Walker]: ...because they can all be slightly different. They can, manipulate certain hormones differently, but...

[Angel Donovan]:Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: ..., a lot of our behavior is based on our hormones.

[Christopher Walker]: And if people are experiencing really, strange issues, things that come out of the blue...

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: ... over the course over a couple of years, some people’s personalities might change a ton.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: If you’re around someone like that, they may have an issue, with a, a benign tumor in their brain, that’s causing a hormonal imbalance. So it’s actually a worthwhile thing to go get an MRI and just to get it checked out or maybe run even just a hormone panel, to see if the doctor notices anything, .

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Totally, well, I came into contact with this a while ago. I didn’t really think that much about it before. I thought about it a bit, in the coaching, I noticed that our guys had different anxiety levels and stuff and the psychology stuff doesn’t seem to always work for them.

So, I was thinking more about biology. But then, about two or three years ago, I was rushed to the hospital thinking I had a stroke and it turned out what I had was some brain inflammation.

And, just before that, for the {la-}, for the three months before, I had super crazy anxiety that I’d never had in my life, {right}. I thought I was going crazy or something. It was like I had to control my mind all the time.

So, I can totally relate. It was a biological thing that was fixed afterwards. It was just lowering the inflammation and the finding out what the cause was.

But , it was all biological. It had nothing to do with psychology. But -- so if anyone’s out there and they’re basically thinking "I’m feeling emotionally different these days, compared to a little while ago," it could very well just, be some biological issue whether it’s a tumor or something else.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, I actually, I completely agree. I would urge people to, get regular checkup, or regular blood test, {uh/um}, with just some basic hormone panels, especially for guys get, get certain things checked. Get your free and your total testosterone checked, your cortisol levels, prolactin...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: ... those things. Just make sure they’re all in balance because, if they’re not, there’s something wrong. it’s not a natural state to be in if you have something like low testosterone or really high cortisol. So, just keep an eye on it and then you can— it’s like the philosophy of gathering data.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: You know how to move forward better if you actually have the data.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. You always need the data as it -- with these biological things that it’s — yeah you can’t just start any treatment or anything if you haven’t got some data to prove it. Otherwise you could run in circles.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. That’s like the Web MD thing where people go online and...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: check their symptoms and it’s like "Oh my gosh, I either have a headache or cancer." so...

[Angel Donovan]: It’s always cancer. Every time you search something, it’s cancer. It’s scary.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, but it’s funny because people would try and use that to move forward with a treatment, but they don’t have any data, they don’t have any blood markers or anything. So, go get a blood test. Go get an MRI or something...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: ...if you really think you have an issue. ...

[Angel Donovan]: And it’s good that you mention the MRI because the CT scan is not what you want. Some doctors will recommend a CT scan, ...

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. ..and , but that can actually hurt you. it’s pouring radiation in your brain. So get an MRI if you’re going to get something, not a CT scan.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, it’s —they’re used for different things. they’re -- but some people would just blanket recommend certain stuff because—, also another thing you have to be careful and not get too many of these things. like you said there’s a lot of radiation involved, a lot of testing and...

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: ... it’s also expensive, so...

[Angel Donovan]: Oh Yeah. Yeah. You want to avoid it.

So anyway your testosterone levels were pretty damn low. What were they exactly?

[Christopher Walker]: basically the lowest I had measured at the time of actually being diagnosed with a tumor was 11 nanograms per deciliter.

[Angel Donovan]: Which is insane. I didn’t even know that was possible. I didn’t know you could walk around with 11 nanograms.

[Christopher Walker]: It was basically—yeah, like zero. That’s really what it is. So for reverence with people —then, the average range for most guys is like 400 – 1000.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: so having 11 basically means you have nothing.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow. All right well we’ll get more into those reference ranges in a bit. I just want to get a bit more background on you.

so how old are you now? where do you live? What’s your life like?

[Christopher Walker]: I am 24 years old. I live in Hollywood and , my life is outstanding and actually I have a great apartment. I, -- some great friends here in the entertainment industry, especially -- and , I work on the internet. I blog and I have a show called The "Road to Ripped" Podcast and, creating courses, teaching people things...

[Angel Donovan]: {Uh-huh}.

[Christopher Walker]: ... specifically with, neuroscience-related things because that’s really what I, my background’s in and I really enjoy it.

[Christopher Walker]: so, nootropics, how to increase your testosterone and , I’m also gonna start teaching people about, business and building an online business. because I really believe actually a lot in this, this lifestyle and I know you’re a digital nomad too.

It’s a really and -- a freeing thing where you work online and you can live wherever you want and it gives you the freedom to really work on {s-} things that you believe in. And I think we need more people doing this because it , it really gives people the opportunity to pursue their art, which is really what they’re here to do, .

[Angel Donovan]: And also to contribute to the world, . you can think — there are a lot of people that are — I don’t want to say stuck, but they’re in these jobs where, a company’s controlling their output to the world, what they create. And sometimes it’s good, if you find the right place you’re putting something out there to the world that’s helping, but, in some other corporation maybe it’s not good, right.

And you could probably feel that inside. So I think a lot of people get fed up with that, but they don’t what to do about it. And as you said, this is a great way to contribute, put something out there into the world that’s gonna make it better and it makes you feel better because of that too.

[Christopher Walker]: Exactly and there’s, there hasn’t been a better time in history to do it, . you can work for yourself. It’s not the hardest thing. I had -- within six months I had a full-time business running. so it doesn’t take that long, especially if you’re already in a job and you have some money saved up...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: ..., you’ll be fine I think.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: If you do it intelligently, people can really not take much time and just work really hard at it and have a full-time...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: ...business for themselves.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. And I think the main thing is,, take something you’re passionate and -- because you’re gonna have way more energy to contribute towards it, .

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, you don’t want to get bored.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, exactly. so yeah. And it takes {tha-}, like you said, it takes maybe six months or so to get it running.

So you do need to get -- have a bit of energy and, if you got a bit of passion about whatever You want to do then that that’s what’s going to get you through that first six months.

All right man.

So in terms of dating and relationships, what is your lifestyle like today? Do you have a particular philosophy or anything like that?

[Christopher Walker]: dating and relationships. I'm , I think I’m -- it’s interesting you ask that actually. The -- I’m at the point, I’m at a turning point I think in my life...

[Christopher Walker]: ...Well, I’ve done the casual thing up till this point and I’m starting to become hollow, .

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: I really am looking for something pretty significant in my life, but, those are things you can’t really force. So I’m just opened to it. I'm, I hate to say settling down because I’m not settling down. I’m not that — I won’t settle down till much later, but I'm settling down in terms of like going out all the time.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: And , drinking a lot and that sort of thing. So I just, I’m trying to focus on my businesses and meeting women just out during the day. I -- , I’m tired of going out at nights, so , I’m starting to appreciate sleep more. so I think maybe this is -- means I’m becoming an adult. I’m about to turn 25 so...

[Angel Donovan]: It sounds like you’re becoming responsible.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, just even in this shift I’ve met a lot of, great women recently just out and about, out at the pool or out at the grocery store, when I...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, it’s great. It just—it also, helps you, when you make that shift of becoming more responsible in your daily life, I -- at least with me, I’ve -- it’s given me a lot more — I feel like it has empowered me a lot in terms of the way I think about myself and , that radiates out into other people, other people notice that.

[Angel Donovan]: Do you mean your business or the way you’re changing your approach to dating in relationships?

[Christopher Walker]: Both. I think it all works synergistically. As I become more confident in what I do online and in my businesses, it also, goes in, builds into my life more too, where, that confidence rubs off on other people. I’m happier, so...

[Angel Donovan]: Yep. Totally.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, it just, it becomes easier to meet people too because you have more going on. You attract people. There’s like a magnetic thing going on.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Well I think some of it is that you’re doing stuff in life. You’re putting stuff out there and that attracts more people because — well you’re just doing more stuff. So it makes sense, you're putting more out into the world. And you’re meeting people through that.

You’re probably meeting a lot more people because of your business and what you’re doing right now. And they’ve got a little more in common with you as well and, I think that works as well. As well as the positive vibe you’ve got because you’re just happier in what you’re doing.

[Christopher Walker]: Exactly, yeah. Well put.

[Angel Donovan]: Well it’s great to hear.

I was just interested, like you said you’ve got to this point where, the casual, you’re over the casual thing. Is there anything you noticed about that? Did some things happen which got you to that critical mass of -- are there any particular changes in your life or, maybe you dated ten girls?

I don’t know if experience is the most important -- is there anything you can think of that got you to that point?

[Christopher Walker]: yeah, I’d say -- I think it was just, an accumulation of just years of being casual about relationships...

... to the point of —, I never tried – I would never try and actually hurt anybody. but, feelings get hurt. It’s just -- I’m just a bit tired of that and , it also -- actually I started to notice that I wasn’t, adding anything to my life and it was only taking time away from myself and me -- from things that I really wanted to focus on.

And it ended up being — when you’re in a situation where you’re not all in, I feel like you -- and especially if the other person and you don’t have the same expectations, if they’re not in line, it could be a very draining thing for both individuals, so...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: It’s been enough of that and I think I just, I’m gonns move on and try and develop more meaningful relationships.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Well actually everything you’ve said is very common.

So guys will get into studying this area of their lives, they’ll see more women and so on. And all of the things you just mentioned, will come up after a while and eventually, they typically, start realizing they’re unhappy and, this isn’t adding to their life and it’s more of a distraction, in their life.

And, once you get to that, I’ve found that guys will get much happier when they make a decision like you, where they’re gonna focus on relationships, where you’re going to give to them and they’re going to be able to give back also.

Because I think some guys will get out there and they can see that maybe their hurting girls because they’ve got different expectations and stuff. And, the pretending doesn’t affect them, but I think it affects all of us, because none of us want more negative emotions in our lives. And, if you’ve got those different expectations going on, then at some point, it’s getting through to you and maybe on a subconscious level and it’s not making you happy about what you’re up to.

[Christopher Walker]: I agree, yeah. I think at the root most of us are good people so this — we don’t wanna hurt other people. So even if, both parties are trying to hide their emotions, , they still get through.

So I totally agree. It’s just -- at a certain point we need to -- or we’re — most of us are looking for something more significant than that.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Totally. And then the thing I found is , I’m in -- {repeated word} {just} for the business and stuff -- because we’ve created businesses which map our interest in life.

I meet a lot of interesting girls as well and, just through doing what I’m doing because it’s linked to my passions and everything, so all my work and a lot of my time because whatever you’re going to work on is going to take a lot of time.

You just happen to meet more people who are interesting for you. So that’s been a good angle as well if this invest in your lifestyle passions brings more relevant people into your life naturally.

[Christopher Walker]: Oh, I agree. And it’s not even -- it’s most people that you meet, girls and guys, when you, you’re meeting people and developing relationships, you’re really an interesting person if you’re the guy who’s going after what they want all the time. and that is – it doesn’t even matter what it is.

It’s like you could wanna make an ice cream stand and make the best ice cream stand in the world, but that just comes off as really cool to basically everyone, they can tell that you’re really into it. So, when you tell people, "Oh, I, I wrote a book," or "Oh, I teach people through courses or I have a show in iTunes." And they’re just like, "Oh, that is the coolest thing." Because they can tell you love doing what you’re doing.

So it just radiates out of you , that you’re really passionate about what you’re doing and it doesn’t even matter at a certain point,, most girls they don’t even care,, what it is. They’re just like, "Oh, this guy is -- he’s going after what he wants. He’s ambitious, confident , happy with what he’s doing." So , and it’s beneficial to focus on those kind of things I think for a lot of guys...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: ...{a-}, aside from just, "Oh, I got to go chase girls all the time."

[Christopher Walker]: it’s really beneficial to pour yourself into something because then it becomes magnetic, you become an easier person to talk to. You’re more interesting. you’re more passionate about a lot of things because you learn everything. you’re easy—, you’re witty. It develops just -- I don’t know -- entrepreneurship, I feel so strongly in {it} as personal development tool. ...

[Angel Donovan]: Right. And it’s because you’re constantly having to do new things and push out there and the more you do, the more confident you get, in life. It’s just like more action. And it’s like acting gives you confidence. It just brings you more and more confidence over time because you know you can deal with anything.

Entrepreneurship, it’s like this really up and down, every day or every week it’s going up and down all the time with good results, bad results.

In the first year it’s rocky and it affects your emotions and everything, but over time you get more and more resistance of that naturally, and you realize, yeah, it’s just a process. I’m just gonna have to push through this and, and learn how to problem-solve basically.

So it’s, as you said it’s like an incredibly healthy and teaches you a lot about yourself and self-growth and stuff.

[Christopher Walker]: And it takes that , that victim mentality that a lot of people have.

[Christopher Walker]: it just pulls it out of you and it’s, {the-}, there’s no time for this. you can’t be a victim and be a successful entrepreneur. you can’t complain about things that have happened to you , or worry about things that might happen. you just have to roll with the punches and be very self-empowered.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. That’s so interesting, because if you are working for another company, basically, you’re not fully responsible. You rely on someone else for your wealth -- that angle, whereas when you become an entrepreneur, you have to become responsible. It’s just you now.

You can’t just say I’m receiving a pay check, and it’s gonna come in every month. and then it’s like company’s fall or it’s like, the CEOs fall or whatever it is all your fault. So that’s a very good point you made there.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. And well and that comes, that translates directly into personal relationships, too, because it helps you really take charge of, the problem-solving in your relationships and , just being that person who’s always going to be taking charge of things and not -- and taking responsibility for their actions as opposed to someone who’s like, "Oh," the same guy {whose}, who complains about getting fired because of {s-} negligence or something is the same guy who’s blaming his relationship problems on a bunch of other people.

so , I think it rubs off and works everywhere in your life at once.

[Angel Donovan]: Totally agree. Responsibility’s the key word there. I mean just take responsibility for yourself and it makes a huge difference.

This is good conversation man. I didn’t expect to talk about this.

[Christopher Walker]: Yes, it is.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, but let’s get moving into the testosterone because that’s what we’re here to talk about.

So you’ve looked a fair amount at the research on testosterone. What would you say are the biggest myths surrounding its importance? Obviously it’s built up a lot online. There’s all sorts of ads on porn sites about testosterone and ways to boost it and stuff. So the marketing can distract us from whether this is actually an important thing or not.

So what would you say are the biggest myths surrounding it?

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, okay. That’s a great question. So, I’d say, the first thing that most guys will assume is that more is better.

So, when you’re getting basically -- I guess something to understand for people is, when you get into the middle of the normal range -- so, let’s say just to put numbers on it, so around 600 - 800 nanograms per deciliter.

When you’re around in that range, you’re not gonna see massive differences the way that you’d – basically, let’s say you had low {testos-} -- let’s say you were at 200 and then you brought it up to 700, you’re gonna see massive changes in a lot of things, like your well-being, your ability to hold and retain muscle mass and gain muscle mass.

Your libido is gonna be completely different in a good way.

[Christopher Walker]: ...those sort of things. You won’t be depressed. Your anxiety will be a lot lower.

But then when you jump from something 700 to 1,000, you’re not gonna see those same scale of massive differences. It might be slight enhancements but they’re not gonna be huge.

So a lot of people, I think that they envision this place of, "Oh my gosh, I need to have really, really high testosterone." And then I’m [audio glitch 29:05] like, "Just put on slabs of muscle and be super, super lean all the time, and shred it, and just have a libido of, like some, {you know,} animal in mating {sea-}, like a gorilla in mating season."

You don’t -- that’s not really , a realistic expectation, I think.

[Christopher Walker]: I think really what it -- it depends a lot on your personality, too. people who are more relaxed are gonna stay more relaxed. You’re just gonna feel a lot better. you’re gonna have a great libido. Everything’s just gonna come into a synergy when you’re in that normal, healthy range.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: And,, you’re not gonna see, this massive improvement, "Oh, I just -- all I have to do is go do curls and I’m just -- put on slabs and muscle." That’s really what happens when people are taking, to the extreme and supplementing with, shots and that sort of thing, and trying to get their testosterone way up like, two, three, four times the normal amount.

that is when you have, these really unrealistic things. But what you’re doing is you’re really just screwing up your endocrine system because you’re giving it an unnatural amount of these hormones. And that’s where things like steroids and that {sort of} stuff just really screws you up.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: So that’s...

[Angel Donovan]: Well, I, actually know a few people who are taking steroids recently. It seems to be becoming more of a trend, more acceptable and the way my buddy sold it to me is just "Yeah everyone’s doing it". He’s looking at bodybuilding forums and so on and everyone’s doing it and it’s way easier."

And some of the things he {sold} -- , he’s tried to sell it to me afterwards. He was, "Well you could take tons of supplements and you realize how much you’ve been spending on supplements and then you get these cheap steroids and you take them for a couple of weeks and it makes all the difference,".

So what would you say to those kinds of arguments?

[Christopher Walker]: Steroids are gonna basically ravage your hormones over the long term, so you are going to -- essentially if you’re giving your body an unnatural amount of anything ...really, you’re gonna have this compensatory response.

So the natural state that your body wants to be in, it -- there’s like an innate intelligence essentially in the way your body operates. It wants to be in a state of balance.

[Christopher Walker]: So anytime -- and we’re talking, biologically and psychologically -- anytime you’re introducing an extreme to the body, (i.e., injecting steroids and having extremely high levels of certain hormones) or going out on an extreme crash diet.

what usually happens on a lot of – basically all the time , depending on how much willpower you have you can stave it off for maybe a year or two or, or if you’re really good and become very miserable.

But what usually will happen is your body is going to override your willpower and swing you back in the opposite direction. [Angel Donovan]: .

[Christopher Walker]: so if you’re looking at dieting, for example, turns into binge eating and then people just yo-yo back and forth. If you’re looking at steroids , what’s gonna happen is, you are introducing such high levels of steroids hormones that —{repeated word} {what} people who take steroids usually don’t understand is that the endocrine system operates {repeated word} {on} feedback loops, both positive and negative feedback loops.

So when it’s running normally – there’s a reason that you can’t get much higher than say, 1,200 or 1,300 testosterone, naturally, because your body is running on these feedback loops. So when you get to a certain level that’s unnaturally high -- well, you’ll never get there naturally, but {if you}, if you’re reaching that threshold , your body with these feedback loops is kind of telling itself through regulation of other hormones that, "Okay, {repeated word} {we’re} high enough. this is enough. We don’t need anymore."

if it starts getting higher , you are going to start having issues with your other hormones because they’re all interconnected. So what happens when people go very, very high is they’re basically just saying , "F- you," to the body’s natural feedback system that regulates all these processes and just overriding it. So they’re gonna have a compensatory response which usually ends up being -- for a lot of guys, they’re, become impotent and they have shrinkage issues.

So, basic things that I personally do not want and I don’t want my clients to have or my customers ever to have.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So to be clear, you’re talking about testicle shrinkage or...?

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, testicle shrinkage.

[Angel Donovan]: What about infertility or anything like that in terms of negatives?

[Christopher Walker]: That’s definitely a possibility.

[Christopher Walker]: Almost a guarantee, I think, just depending on how long you’re on the steroids.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: I think most people just—they’ll go on and they’ll just go on it and stay on it for years. I think when you look at—there’s some grey area, too, when you look at people with jobs that require –, actors who are trying to get big for roles and stuff. They all take steroids. But they cycle on them and then they go right off after the movie. ...

[Angel Donovan]: Captain America style?

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah because got big pretty quick.

[Christopher Walker]: And they don’t overdo it, either.

[Christopher Walker]: a lot of guys, too, will just take steroids for years and just keep pumping and they get unnaturally big. And it’s funny because if you’re taking steroids to look better to the opposite sex....

[Christopher Walker]: I really, I would caution you against it because like every girl I’ve ever talked to just thinks guys who are on steroid look ridiculous.

[Angel Donovan]: Well That’s the thing, is this whole "bigger, better" attitude and it’s , you’re talking about it’s a sweet spot for testosterone hormones. There’s also a sweet spot for muscle mass, . It’s not just better. And there’s a sweet spot for penis size and all these things that guys worry about. There’s a sweet spot. It’s not like more is better all the time.

And I think one of the things I, I’ve noticed over time is also once you start to do something — so say you start on the steroids and you get a bit bigger.

Because of the way -- our brains work, we always want to -- the grass is always greener, then next year,, you’re looking at other guys who are bigger and you’re "I’ve got to be as big as that," {right}. And then when you get there, you’re "Oh, I got to be bigger," {right}.

And it’s – you get on this roller coaster which you see in plastic surgery as well. people do a few plastic surgery tips and tucks here. I saw a lot in Thailand and places like that. And of course in LA they do a lot and you see them get on this roller coaster after a while, they don’t look good at all. The stuff they’re doing is really extreme, but they don’t realize it because they’re on this roller coaster of the first step plus the second step and they got to somewhere where they didn’t think they would end up.

Don’t know if you’ve seen that too.

[Christopher Walker]: That’s a good point. Oh no, totally. because then you can tell -- you’re like, "Oh, that woman does a lot of plastic surgery." And it’s like she’s not even attractive. It’s just like, "Oh my gosh, she clearly just has done a ton of plastic surgery."

[Angel Donovan]: Right. And you see that a lot in LA, just walking around or in the bars you see that quite often. And it’s just like "Wow! That’s way.. that’s just too much."

[Christopher Walker]: Everywhere. Yeah, that’s why I caution people, in with what I teach I’m -- I always harp on people realizing their ‘why’, why you’re doing something and keeping that at the top of their mind {all} at all times because when you always have the reason why you’re going after some kind of a goal on the top of your mind, {repeated word} {then} you don’t get distracted by those kind of things.

because if someone, for example, doing plastic surgery, the first reason they wanted – , their ‘why’ initially was to look more attractive , but eventually it turns into they just look like they had plastic surgery.

the same with steroids. A lot of guys, their ‘why’ is like, "Oh, I'm skinny and I want to get bigger and just have , a good amount of muscle mass." And then they – like you said, they get to a certain point where maybe they even look great and then they {loo-}, they start comparing themselves to other people and they get caught up in that. And that’s not their initial ‘why’. {they}, they’re just trying to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: And end up looking like a cloud. It’s, just a bunch of bulging muscles, so.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Well I’d actually say my buddy’s doing this. It’s he looks great as he is. but he’s now talking about his—{repeated words} {he just} did his first ever cycle, which was {repeated incomplete word} {a lo-} apparently a very low cycle, and now he’s looking at the next step.

but, if I was him I would just stop where he is right now because {repeated words} {I don’t} see how getting bigger is gonna, be a positive at all. so, it’s interesting to see that.

So in terms of -- I like this, you’re talking about this, basically feedback mechanism, which keeps us within norms {repeated words} {if it’s} done naturally. So it’s -- this goes a lot with the health crowd as well, {right}. A lot of people these days are saying "We don’t really understand our biology," and things like this. So you try and do things which are kind of natural and then you’re gonna stay within the natural realm of biology and you’re not going to mess yourself up.

so, a lot of people talk about uCurves [check 38:11], which I don’t really understand. It’s this sweet spot at the bottom, but I always think of it as an in curve. in testosterone, we start off low, {right}. And we get low rewards maybe because we’re at 200 {or some-} or something like that, and so we’re deficient basically.

Then we increase it and we get more rewards at the top of the in curve and then, we stop pushing it forever [check 38:34] -- maybe we have some negatives.

[Christopher Walker]: yeah, I’d say , I still think though within the, within the normal range...

[Angel Donovan]: {Uh-hm}.

[Christopher Walker]: ...probably up to 1,200 or so...

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: ...maybe a little higher {um,} which is actually hard to do, really hard to be -- get higher than that. The – within that range though, between 450, maybe 500 in there , you’re not gonna see many negatives at all.

[Christopher Walker]: And it might just depend on the personality, though I found personally— I tried out 1,200s for a while. So it’s usually between 1,000 and 1,200 just because I know what to do to keep it there and I really have – I don’t feel completely that much different than I did at 800 or so.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: and there’s not really—it’s just like my personality, I’m a pretty relaxed guy. I’m just pretty chill. I have some systems in place psychologically to not get anxious about certain things and whatever.

[Christopher Walker]: So – but for some people, maybe they’ll, they would get a little more aggressive, I don’t know. That – it just seems like it’s purely a personality construct in terms of people raging out. But usually that only happens when people are at unnaturally high levels.

[Angel Donovan]: So you don’t think that would happen at 1,200?

[Christopher Walker]: Not really, no.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. Cool.

[Christopher Walker]: It might -- if the person is naturally prone to being aggressive, then maybe it would come out a little bit more.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: For example, someone who maybe is, when they get drunk they get really aggressive.

[Christopher Walker]: Those kind of people, that might, maybe if they’re at the very, very high end they might be a little more aggressive than usual, but probably not. There’s not a...

[Angel Donovan]: because {repeated words} {it definitely} gives you more drive and control , over your life. So I, I guess if you -- if you’re thinking about it psychologically, then if you’ve got a repressed anger and you have more testosterone, you’re more free to push it out there when you have a normal or high testosterone level. Would you say that’d make sense?

[Christopher Walker]: possibly. I think maybe {repeated word} {what’s} a better {repeated word} I guess personification of a high testosterone level is that you feel really – you feel like a man and in that feeling You are very confident. you’re confident in what you {ha-}, what you have to bring to the table.

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: so and your secure in that confidence ...you’re more secure than if you’re at,, 300, 400 in yours [check 41:05] because you’re worrying about that kind of issue.

[Angel Donovan]: {Uh-huh}.

[Christopher Walker]: So maybe if you feel very strongly about something you‘ll feel more secure in asserting your point.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: but not necessarily you having it been overtly aggressive.

[Angel Donovan]: {Uh-huh}. Cool. So are there any -- is there anything we haven’t discussed, which -- say at a level of 1,200 or 1,300 {and} are there any negative aspects to having that level of testosterone?

[Christopher Walker]: not that I’ve personally run across either in my own life or in the literature, to be honest. There’s – depending on what you think though,, maybe that would send someone’s libido into overdrive , and that could be a negative. Believe it or not.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: It could be very distracting to try and get work done, that {sort of} thing, so...

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So that’s actually something I wanted to bring up, which is a bit more of a tangent, but {I}, if you look at a lot of studies on different ethnicities, you see that there are different levels of promiscuity or, sexual activity, and STD rates and, all sorts of implications, over their life and they also even try to tie it down to productivity and things like that. There’s a fair number of studies out there.

And, it’s they have seen differences between different ethnicities and obviously there are different levels of testosterone, {na-} natural ranges of testosterone between these ethnicities.

So {repeated words} {would you} say to that level of degree it can be influencing behavior, {right}. So obviously,, they {point}, often point at ethnic Africans which have the higher levels of testosterone for instance and the Asians have the lowest if you want to take {repeated word} different extremes and different behaviors based on that.

Is that something, you would say is possible based on different levels of testosterone? Do you think it’s related to something more complicated about those ethnicities or is it, just the testosterone for example? Or would you say it’s more complicated?

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, I don’t know actually. {repeated words} {I haven’t} seen those studies , I’ll just [check 43:02] go check those out. But {repeated words} {I think} it’s probably a good mix of everything. it makes just, common sense -- why is it—it makes a lot of sense that at certain, if you are more – if you do have a a much higher level of testosterone,, regardless of ethnicity if your testosterone is higher and that ends up leaving you to have a higher libido, and you’ll probably be less productive in general.

so, {repeated word} because you’re always just thinking about sex all the time.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: So that’s just common sense. {It makes} , it makes sense , but, yeah, I haven’t actually looked at those studies. I would be interested to look at them.

[Angel Donovan]: Yep. So when you raise testosterone with steroids, would you get this, let’s say over-enhanced libido as well? Would that happen?

[Christopher Walker]: I actually...

[Angel Donovan]: Or you’re not sure.

[Christopher Walker]: ...I’m not sure about that. I don’t know. I wouldn’t be surprised either way, though, actually if it was really suppressed or —the endocrine system is an extremely complicated thing.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Totally. Well this connects back to the dating philosophy you have as well or in your overall lifestyle. it’s not an issue that guys typically, normally think about when they’re first listening to, dating advice and so on.

But, eventually you get to this point where it’s, your satisfaction is the most important thing and, your happiness in life and then you can start looking at well am I a—, is my dating life too distracting for me. Is it, it’s taking away from other aspects of my life and so on

So that’s, when you might start entertaining these kind of higher-level questions. It’s could my {testosteresone be a}, testosterone be a little bit too high and my libido, as a consequence, be a little bit too high and becoming a distracting factor rather than a positive in my life?

But for most people, this is probably not gonna be the issue, {right}?

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, for most people they’re just -- they are, You know, usually struggling with low testosterone, a lot of guys. So ...

[Angel Donovan]: Well can we talk a little bit about that because ...

[Christopher Walker]: Sure. ..some of the research says—{I mean} it can be age related, {right}, as you get older, people get lower testosterone. And {I understand}, I also understand that {repeated words} {there’s a} trend towards lowered testosterone across society as well, which they’re not entirely sure exactly why it’s happening.

Could you comment on those?

[Christopher Walker]: sure, yeah. So on the age , there’s definitely, and it makes – {that}, that’s common sense, too. It really makes sense of having an age decline. same if you look at women there’s definitely a fertility decline obviously...

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: ...at a certain age. And for men, {repeated words} {I think} men really, though, can last a lot longer in terms of their testosterone levels than they do. A lot of guys, by the time they get to their mid-30s, a lot of guys are at ridiculously low levels of testosterone which – and I’ll talk about in a minute. I’ll talk about why.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: But it’s not natural. Even when you’re in your 40s and your 50s, I think men can still maintain their healthy levels of testosterone. will it be naturally lower? Will you be able to maintain 1,000 when you’re 50? , it’ll probably be difficult to do that naturally. and that’s just realistic because your body is not operating {on the same way} in the same way {repeated words} {as it} was when you’re young and you’re looking – , if you look at it evolutionarily, it’s, you’re young, you’re looking to mate, your sex drive is through the ceiling.

[Christopher Walker]: It’s gonna be naturally different than when you’re 50 years old and you’ve been through your life and you've lived and possibly been married, had kids, and that sort of thing. You’ll be a different person at that point.

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: you can still have a healthy normal level of testosterone. If you have low testosterone at that point and it’s very low, that’s not natural.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: And you’re doing some things wrong. So...

[Angel Donovan]: So is the cutoff point you mentioned earlier, is it 600?

[Christopher Walker]: for the normal range?

[Angel Donovan]: Right. if you—below this number you would say it’s on the low side and you should do something to get it raised.

[Christopher Walker]: yeah, I’d probably – well, {I mean}, the real ranges actually just depend on whatever lab you’re using for the testing.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. And that’s something you should probably bring up too.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. So, just—{like} the main labs here in the US -- at least {they} they’re usually measuring it between 400 and up.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: so—so that’s a thing. But I’ve seen people measure it a little bit higher and a little bit lower -- just – it depends on the labs. But I’d say in general, what you’d want to aim for, yeah, is probably around 600 , the upper 500s for the low end. So anything below that, anything in the low 500s or the 400s and below that...

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: ...is, in my book, is low. Well, I had {repeated word} {my} own personal experiences I did an experiment on this a couple of years ago. I had in the 400s and I put it up to 680 over a couple of months and I felt way better. I was doing better in the gym and everything. I really felt the difference between that. So I don’t know it was 430 or something when I started. And I was in my, I was around 35, {30} 36 at the time.

So, I, {repeated words} {I guess} for my age, that might be a normal because {I} -- it’s not like my lifestyle {repeated word} {was} different. So I might have been—I don’t know.

{Like} I guess a lot of my friends could be the same—{like} some of my friends who’d got to [check 48:02] be tested and they’re around the same, they’re around 400s or something.

So we all basically had these , relatively low compared to the markers you’re talking about, levels and we saw a difference when we took, some measures to get it fixed.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, exactly. And that—it’s funny because just that – {like }I was saying earlier, just that initial jump from the 300 or 400 range up to the 600 range...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: ...the 800, you’re gonna see, a very massive and noticeable improvements.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: It’s instant.

[Angel Donovan]: and on the reference thing, you said -- I got mine first tested when I was in Bangkok, I think and I -- the range they were using was something 400 - 780, or I can’t remember -- something like that, {right}.

So I was in the range when I got tested. And I didn’t know about the different reference ranges.

So what you’re talking more about when you say that the 600 - 1,100 you’re talking about more of an optimum range because labs they’re just taking a range on the normal curve of society, {right}. But if...

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. ..if as we say more and more people have got {low} lower testosterone than those ranges are just going down over time, whereas the optimum should still stay the same {right}.

[Christopher Walker]: Exactly, yeah. I think really what {repeated word} {they’re} measuring for each lab is they gather all the data because that’s what they do. They gather numbers. so they have all the data on all the tests they’ve ever run.

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: So I think that’s how they calibrate their normal ranges. and that’s how we get data like you mentioned where they say, "Okay, there’s been a steady downward trend in terms of those males’...

[Christopher Walker]: ...testosterone numbers." And , I actually think just to comment on that I wholeheartedly believe that it has to do with nutrition in just across, society. And if you look at the downward trend with testosterone numbers and then the upward trend with obesity, even {a-} around the world , it makes perfect sense because when you have higher body fat levels you’re naturally gonna have lower testosterone levels.

[Christopher Walker]: And there’ll definitely be some people with – that are just complete anomalies who are abnormally and like -- and they have been for their entire lives -- in, the 20% range of body fat around there...

[Christopher Walker]: ...and still have like, very high testosterone or healthy normal levels.

but for most people, when they’re in the higher range of body fat, {repeated word} {they’re} going to suffer issues with lower testosterone and basically {repeated word}, the biggest thing that I tell people to do {a} right away to increase their testosterone is just to decrease their body fat levels.

And that, if you do it intelligently with good nutrition, you’re actually doing a lot of things at once in terms of bringing your testosterone back up. because essentially when you have all this body fat, this toxic body fat, You – it’s operating {as a}, as an organ. {There’s a lot}—there are a lot of like bad hormones in your body fat.

So when you’re able to get rid of it, then you’re freeing up some {repeated word} – {where you’re} -- {I mean}, you’re literally lifting a load off your body that now it feels a lot better.

Another myth, I think that people , prescribe to is that lower body fat equals better. And this is again, we’re going back to that ‘more is better’ style thing.

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: to a certain point, when you get to a healthy body fat level, that’s where you want to stay, I think. And , when people get really, really low, I’m talking below 80% body fat where they’re just shredded, that’s when you actually start running again into low testosterone issues.

so your body really wants to strike a balance again. I know a lot of fitness models {repeated word} {who} have to take testosterone shots because they, – and people think of these guys as the epitome of manly.

[Christopher Walker]: They are just tons of lean muscle tissue, they’re shredded to the bone, there’s jacked [check 51:51] and it’s funny cause {they}, they’re all, {re-}, really low levels of testosterone like 200 and 300 and {um } -- so they have to take shots to keep their testosterone high enough so that they can keep training.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow. So {what is a}, what’s a good range for body fat?

[Christopher Walker]: in my opinion, I think if you can get to on the very, very low end – if you get to 8 or 9% over a long period of time...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: ...of healthy training with a small calorie deficit over a couple years...

[Angel Donovan]: Yep.

[Christopher Walker]: ...I think that people can maintain that with high testosterone.

[Christopher Walker]: And I’ve done that myself, I stayed right around 9% body fat...

[Christopher Walker]: ... and keep my testosterone high. But -- and then at the higher end, I’d say maybe {like 15%}.

[Christopher Walker]: so {repeated word} {within} that range, maybe 9 - 15, 14 - 15% of body fat is usually where you’re gonna have your highest levels of testosterone and you’re gonna feel great, too. {I mean}, you’re gonna feel more athletic, you’ll feel light on your feet, you’ll feel healthy.

and that’s a general place where a lot of people just fluctuate at a healthy level without really [check 52:57] paying much attention to their diet and stuff. As long as they’re eating pretty well and getting some exercise, they’ll usually stay in that range.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. If you’re thinking 2080, it’s pretty easy to get at 13% [check 53:09] say, but to do that extra 4 or 5% that you were just talking about, yeah it takes a bit more effort.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, and that’s why I tell people to do it over a longer period of time...

[Christopher Walker]: ...and not be in such a rush. because yeah, {it}, it’s not that hard to get down to a 13% body fat, 12%. you just need to drop body fat and by having a calorie deficit and training correctly.

but when you get to a certain point, diet calorie deficit becomes much harder to maintain...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: ...especially if it was big in the first place, because for people who are overweight or obese, it’s a lot easier to actually have a bigger {calor-} calorie deficit because you have more energy to feed off of.

[Christopher Walker]: But when you start reading, {er}, when you start reaching that point where you’re going into o n—{like}, pushing the boundaries of that healthy body fat level and you’re trying to get really lean so you have a great beach body, then your body’s gonna fight back.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: And that’s through those feedback systems. You have these appetite regulating hormones and those {sort of} things that are gonna fight back and make you want to self-sabotage and that’s just a natural thing, though.

So that’s why I recommend doing it over time, never really going – when you’re at a healthy body fat level, if you want to get ripped, to not go over a 20% deficit at a time, and just – because that’s really a sweet spot. It’s nice and easy. Your body’s not gonna notice any big hormonal swings, that would come from dieting on a huge deficit.

And That’s why people advocate things like re-feeds to – because they advocate it in a, {di-} diet that is on a big deficit. So let’s say, I’ll go all week with really low carbs and really low fat and a really high protein diet on 1,600 calories a day.

[Christopher Walker]: Then , on Sunday you do a re-feed where you can eat anything you want, just to up, up regulate all the right hormones and reset your hormones for the next week.

I tend to think diets like that just miss the point. You can have a much smaller deficit all week and then you don’t risk all the binge eating on that one day so that it just completely overrides everything you just did over the week and you don’t have to crush your hormones every time and make them have these wild swings back and forth.

You can just have a smaller deficit where you’re hitting that sweet spot and grooving it over a period of six months and/ or twelve months and really just keep your testosterone at a nice healthy level the entire time. You can train harder, you sleep better, you have less anxiety, you don’t feel depressed, you don’t crave a bunch of food. So that’s the approach that I advocate.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. That’s actually what I do too. And I just picked up on — it’s the mental stability issue as well because like You say—because I did the , once a week crazy re-feed thing for about four months or so and I would get headaches at the end of that day every time. I’m not sure exactly what, what was doing it, but it was really messing with my biology and it wasn’t fun.

And also {repeated word} {I’d} noticed that when I tried to work those days, it was much harder as well. I couldn’t get stuff done and I was {more over the place}, all over the place. so I was more ADD and things like that. So there’s something to that stability point you just mentioned.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, you—{like} on those re-feed days – I’ve been on diets like that before and I know that feeling where you just eat and then you just want to fall asleep. You literally can’t think. You have this brain fog, and you’re just, "Oh my gosh." , {an} and you’re – not to mention your GI tract, because you just go all week barely eating anything and then you just shove a bunch of food down your face...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: ...and , then your stomach is {like,} "What the heck just happened?"

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. it’s not good and it’s also like, it’s way easier I think to get in a habit that you’re just following every day and just after a while it becomes automatic, {right}. It’s just the right thing to do and you do it all the time and you don’t even think about it after a while. I don’t think about what I eat anymore.

[Christopher Walker]: That’s why I like to tell people, too, is to shift their focus away from their diet nutrition.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: especially if they’re trying to achieve goals in that space, in that realm of their fitness.

[Angel Donovan]: {Uh-huh}.

[Christopher Walker]: it sounds so counter-intuitive, but it’s usually what works because when you’re always obsessing over what you’re eating {and}, and/or your specific goals, "Oh my gosh, I have to get down to 9% body fat. I have to do this. I have to lose 14 lbs. or whatever."

then people like that, that think that way rarely ever get there. It’s when they dial in to what you’re doing where you just -- everyday {it’s got}, it’s on autopilot and you’re focusing on other things, that’s when you actually start hitting your goals. And you’re not in a rush because you’re patient about it. You’re, "Oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna spend six months, twelve months, till I get to my goal. but I’m in no rush. I’ll get there." And it’s not like it’s this draining ordeal. Just...

[Angel Donovan]: Right. to [check 57:59]. It’s set it and forget it, . {repeated word} {Just} learn the right way to do it and just put it on autopilot and you get there in six months and done.

[Christopher Walker]: Exactly. [check 58:06]

[Angel Donovan]: So you mentioned fat was toxic. could you elaborate a bit on that because, you hear a lot of things about , fat is {repeated word} {estrogenic}, which, , has this contrasting relationship with testosterone and you also hear that fats stores toxics [check 58:27].

So when you’re saying fat is disruptive of testosterone, what exactly do you mean?

[Christopher Walker]: so basically, I think it’s – again, it’s complicated but once it starts - when you have a higher level of body fat, it holds on to chemicals. It’s actually a really great place to store chemicals and just like the things, the shitty stuff, in the food that you’re eating that gets you fat in the first place.

So it’s -- there’s no wonder that a lot of people who are very overweight have very bad skin, very bad sleeping issues, that {sort of} thing. There’s actually a lot of chemicals in the body fat, especially stomach fat.

so really what it ends up doing is acting as an endocrine organ, which is really an odd thing, but your fat is actually secreting hormones because there’s just so much going on and it’s a living organ. it’s nasty to think about.

So, when you have {this}, all this foreign stuff , introduced to your endocrine system, again, that’s like a very complex interplay of feedback loops. Then it starts to disrupting things. You start having a lot of GI issue, you have a lot of psychological issues, depression, anxiety, that sort of thing. because it’s also influencing your gut, which your gut is a very important thing.

I’ve never really talked about it yet but the , there are more -- basically people call your gut your second brain because there are a hundred million neurons in your gut, which is crazy. And a neuron’s like a nerve cell, it’s like your brain cells. so, to have all this foreign body fat that’s directly influencing actually your gut as well -- so your gut is then communicating with your brain and then you -- it throws off, basically a lot of, of these feedback loops that are working in your body.

So, that’s what I mean. It’s this toxic thing. People know body fat’s not a great thing to have, a bunch of it, so...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, what I want to make sure we’ve done here, which I think we’ve done is give guys a bit more clarity on why it’s a bad thing because the more reasons you have to get, start taking action, the better, . So it’s, for this discussion if they learn that {ah} fat is also bad for my testosterone. It doesn’t look good as well. And all these other things. And once you've got eight reasons to do it, it makes it easier to do.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. I think it – like you said, it’s also estrogenic and helps, – it spurs on the production of estrogen. And then guys have problems with their man-boobs. I guess, I think it was called, it was.. I forgot the exact medical term for it. But when men.

[Angel Donovan]: Gynocomastia...

[Christopher Walker]: Gynecomastia or something. Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, when you [check 1:01:07] start developing the man-boobs and that’s actually a product of having this excess body fat where it’s secreting estrogen. So That’s a bad thing.

[Angel Donovan]: {repeated word} Yeah. So You estrogen is the opposite of testosterone. Is it—there’s actually a a discorrelation between it right. So a negative correlation between the two.

[Christopher Walker]: just somewhat, yeah. it’s a little more complicated than just a direct one-to-one. But {I}, I’d say, actually more more of the direct {repeated word} negative correlation is actually cortisol with testosterone.

[Angel Donovan]: {repeated word} {Aha}. Right.

Well let’s {repeated word} {just} to kind of finish off on the diet thing. I know one of the big things you recommend is cholesterol, which also has a weird reputation in the world of health and especially if you’re watching TV and the media and everything, for the last 30, 40 years, cholesterol has been something to avoid. So , eggs, steaks, and anything else that they sort of had high levels of cholesterol in it.

So {repeated word} {what} is your point about cholesterol and testosterone?

[Christopher Walker]: so cholesterol pretty simply is just the pre-cursor to all steroid hormones in your body. So, when you have really low levels of cholesterol being produced in your body and coming in through dietary cholesterol , you are gonna have issues with your steroid hormones in your body.

So , everything from testosterone, cortisol, estrogen, {andros-}, there’s, {there are}, there are a million different ones. not a million, but I think there are 20. But, {repeated word} {any} androgen, essentially, that’s being produced, cholesterol is a pre-cursor to it.

So you want to have a a good level of cholesterol in your body at all times because it’s one of the most important compounds that you can be – {repeated words} {that you} can have naturally imbalanced. So , I would say also that this anti-cholesterol thing that had been happening for last couple decades has also a lot to day with the average decline of testosterone in men, because they are so directly related.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah because if you look at the products in the supermarket they are low-fat everything, which also means low cholesterol a lot of the time. So we’ve been, —I was taking low-fat products for a while. I’m sure everyone was because I grew up with that. It was, when I was a teenager everything was getting into low-fat.

So all the products you were picking up, all the brands were assigned [check 1:03:36] to be low-fat and you, all the advertising and everything for that {repeated word} {was} low-fat. So you’re automatically taking this. So I think it could definitely be -- and somewhat linked to the testosterone decline because we just, {everyone} everyone’s been doing it whether they actually were doing activity or not, just by the nature of the products that were in the supermarkets and everything.

[Christopher Walker]: Exactly, yeah. And that’s something that, honestly, it’s a huge red flag when you look at it in hindsight. It’s like, "Oh." It’s all the marketing and everything that was being put on the shelves to sell is jumping on this trend. it throws up a red flag and where you think, "Oh, gosh, I should’ve known. I should’ve known that it was really just something that..."—, we go through these cyclical trends of trying to sell a bunch of product...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: ... to a lot of people. But stuff like food is so important and detrimental when these big blooming trends just overtake an entire industry. That means it then overtakes entire populations and then we’re gonna see these issues having a lot of guys even in their 20s and 30s with low testosterone because they grow up in these kind of {sit-}, situations.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So what would you—to give to these guys a clear example here, did you track your blood markers, like LDL, HDL, total cholesterol, cholesterol and stuff like that?

[Christopher Walker]: yeah, I did a little bit with the cholesterol numbers.

[Angel Donovan]: Well I do too. I’ve been doing it for a long time and what would you say is your diet on a typical day in terms of cholesterol -- what kind of cholesterol foods are you getting in?

[Christopher Walker]: Usually I just, I get my cholesterol from meat. I’m usually going steak or chicken, dark meat chicken and some skin, also some butter. I used to eat a lot of eggs. I eat eggs more and frequently now just for personal taste reasons because I ate so many before.

but the , I’ll have omelets. {repeated words} {Go to} IHOP or a diner and get some omelets. that’s really, {you know,} the extent of the cholesterol. It’s not that complicated. It’s like just red meat, dark fatty meat or some dairy or some eggs.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So {repeated word} {mines} {repeated word} {pretty} similar. I’ll just give my example as a {compa-} comparison. I typically have about six eggs -- focused on the yolks actually because the egg whites are for me and some people it can be {aller-} allergenic.

So maybe to have six eggs every day and to have the whites as well could pose a problem down the line. so I’ll just have the yolks to get the cholesterol and some of the other benefits of the yolks cause they’re full of stuff. I have steaks quite often, maybe three, four times a week. {repeated words} {A lot} of that good {repeated word} {fatty} stuff there.

So that’s like the main sources of cholesterol I have and I guess with your numbers, like {repeated word} {my}—since I’ve been doing this for a couple of years or so, my HDL’s up, my LDLs down, steadily over time. I haven’t seen basically they, {the}, the reason we’re supposed to be avoiding cholesterol is because our LDL is supposed to go up, {right}, which is bad.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. did you see that when you were looking at that? Did your LDL go up a lot or...?

[Christopher Walker]: not really. {They} -- {repeated word} {mine} have always been pretty balanced. They’re always just within the range, don’t fluctuate a whole lot.

[Angel Donovan]: {repeated word} {Excellent}. So {hope-} hopefully, that, makes guys feel a bit more comfortable about that.

So, yeah. It’s a good part -- a bit, about diet there with the testosterone.

the other thing I just wanted to touch on is have you seen any research or anything when you were looking into this about how attracted women are to you based on your testosterone levels?

[Christopher Walker]: Oh, yeah. {repeated word}{This} is interesting. I read a decent amount of stuff on people talking about a pheromone effect where – and I’ve actually – it’s a funny story, my dad -- I’ve been trying to get him to do – I gave him the book, I gave him I’ve been trying to teach him exactly what he has to do because {repeated word} {he’s} , he’s 50 years old...

[Angel Donovan]: That’s awesome. That’s awesome.

[Christopher Walker]: ..., he’s been having low testosterone issues and he – it’s funny because he – his initial reaction, I guess, was to just take the hormone therapy from the doctor, like the gels.

[Christopher Walker]: And , it was funny because when my – when he started taking it, my mom and my sister were like, "Oh my gosh, {repeated words} {I can} tell when he’s in the garage about to come into the house." they just can smell it. {repeated words} {It was} really interesting. But it’s...

[Angel Donovan]: that’s -- what’s that stuff called androgel?

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, androgel.

[Angel Donovan]: And it smells bad?

[Christopher Walker]: No, no. They say it in a good way. They’re like, "Oh my gosh. Dad’s home," or {urh} "Daddy’s home." it’s, they can’t wait to have him around just because it’s like this super attractive smell. I’m, "What are you guys smelling?" {I mean}, because I don’t smell any of it. I don’t smell this stuff, which – it’s interesting cause there’s something there where the women really can, they can tell.

and that makes sense evolutionarily [check 1:08:34], too. It’s a marker of fertility and of protective man kind of thing.

but in terms of {repeated words} {what I’ve} read, I read -- basically {there is}, there was some kind of effect where the man with ,, normal and {repeated word} {good} testosterone range are gonna have a more, of a presence with women than...

[Christopher Walker]: ...than guys without it. And that -- I honestly, that kind of just makes sense with the way a guy carries himself. {It may}, it might have to do with pheromones, it might not. I don’t know. ...

[Angel Donovan]: But what I saw is there’s no -- they haven’t done these exact studies and controlled them where they’re just looking at testosterone and they’re looking at attractiveness.

What I saw is this. the study where they basically got these handkerchiefs. They got these handkerchiefs, and they gave them to guys and, they rubbed themselves with the handkerchiefs so it got their smells or their pheromones or whatever it is on them and then they gave it to some different women and they just told them to rate the handkerchiefs, based on how attracted they thought they were to the men.

And {the} what they did see was that the more genetically different you were to the woman -- so they looked at it from this genetic different standpoint. So you’re looking for something that’s more genetically different.

so I saw that, but I felt that it was probably also linked to the testosterone levels.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. {There}, {I mean}, because there’d be some kind of a musk. men give off—you give off something. There’s something going on., I know I’ve experienced it personally too with — I was with a girl and she—it was I don’t think I’d had [check 1:10:22] showered all day or something, but she says, "Oh my gosh. You smell so good." I was "Are you kidding me?"

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: I don't smell good. I haven’t taken a shower today.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Christopher Walker]: She was, "I just can’t, I just want to smell your skin. You just smell so good." I’m like, "I don’t smell anything, but, that’s fine with me." But, there’s something there. {repeated words} {I don’t} really know to put my hand on it.

[Angel Donovan]: it’s something there. This is anecdotal {repeated word} {as} well, but what I noticed when I picked up my testosterone a bit, I was getting noticed more. there was more girls coming up to me and or just I’d be sitting in a café, they’d come and sit next to me more often and start fluttering their eyelids or whatever, {so}.

it’s just—that was something that I noticed for sure and I remember telling, talking, discussing with my friends about it at the time.

So it’s something I believe in but I don’t think that as you said, I’m not sure there’s any direct research related to this yet as such. So it’s a bit anecdotal but I’m a believer in it.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah there are a lot of stories on it. There’s -- well even the pheromone thing is contested. people are are these things real. it’s -- in the actual research it’s hard to pinpoint, how effective a pheromone influence is on something.

But they’re all on it, [check 1:11:35], animal things that happened, pheromones, or at least they think it’s pheromones, people -- ants will leave, a pheromone trail and other ants will follow it and that sort of thing. So, I don’t know.

[Angel Donovan]: Chris. Yeah, {this is} {repeated words} {this is grea-} great stuff. Thanks for coming and talking all about this testosterone stuff because I think it’s, , it’s something that could help a lot of guys out there {repeated words} on the biology aspect of their inner game [check 1:12:00] and confidence, when it comes to the whole dating, sex, and relationships with women, meeting women, attracting them as we’ve spoken about a bit here and their sexual life and relationships and so on.

, there’s a question we ask everyone who comes on the podcast. And I’m gonna ask you this question.

What are your top three recommendations to men wanting to have a better lifestyle from a dating, sex, and relationships angle -- the top three things you’d recommend they do?

[Christopher Walker]: . Good questions. Okay. So, let’s see.

first I would say just to draw back on what we were talking about earlier. One of the things, I think you’re gonna have {more}, the most successful relationships in your life, when you are in a state of {repeated word} , very ambitious, state with your own personal life, independent of those relationships, where you’re going after what you want and you’re just taking names thing, kicking ass, taking names whatever.

where in another sphere that really drives you and like nights of passion in your life and then that’s when the {repeated word} {other} aspects of your life, like your relationships, and your dating are going to come more effortlessly, because you’re gonna be a lot more self-confident and {I} -- that’s probably just at the root of everything. It’s just having a lot of self-confidence.

But you can’t really develop that self-confidence unless you have a way, a part of your life that’s {do-}, doing the developing. Because {repeated word} {I don’t}, and you may not agree with this, but, I don’t know if -- I don’t think dating itself is a great way to develop self-confidence.

I think having other parts of your life that you are using to develop that self-confidence, and namely something like entrepreneurship {repeated word} {or} education or whatever. those are great ways to develop the self-confidence that of just radiates out of you and then You go to those relationship and you start developing relationships with people and dating, and it just becomes a lot easier because you are your own man, You know who are who you are. That’s one thing.

let’s see, second, I think, mutual respect always. That’s something that a lot of people just take for granted. People are out to serve themselves. And it’s something naturally people tend to almost want to fall into. We want, we have self-preservations mechanisms.

but when you’re in a relationship and I’ve made mistakes with this in the past too. I think everyone has, where , there’s -- you don’t always , keep that in mind that, you’re dealing with another human being too. So always really have that mutual respect for them. And, just be on a level playing field.

Something we mentioned earlier with the expectations, don’t go into a situation where you know the expectations are going to be completely , off kilter between you and the other person. I think that’s just a recipe {repeating word} {for} hurting somebody. So that’s not a good thing.

the last one is really just always have honesty in the relationship. And that just kind of ties in to what I was just saying,if it comes to a point where the , expectations aren’t, in line and maybe they were in line to begin with, but they become off kilter, and say—{you need to be}, you really need to be honest with the other person and say, "Okay, you’re—{repeated word} {let’s} just take a really common example., oh, she falls in love with you and your, you don’t feel the same way.

I really just advocate being honest with her and just being like "Look, I can tell you’re really falling in love with me, but I just, I’m not feeling that way toward you right now. and I just want to be honest and tell you that."

When you can say that, instead of stringing a girl along , this is -- , whether you’re scared of that, the fact that she’s in love with you or whether {you’re} {ta-}, gonna take advantage of it. I don’t think either of those are good. I think you should just be honest and open and then nothing {repeated word} {but} good things can come out of the honesty. even if it’s a break up, it’s still a good thing because you’re being honest with her and yourself.

[Angel Donovan]: Those are some great point’s man.

Thank you very much for those and what I love about those is that they’re quite different to some of the other ones we , we get on the show and, that’s what we’re trying to do here is get a broad array of good, quality responses to these things.

On your first one, you said maybe I wouldn’t think the same way. I think it may be a little bit different to you just for the conversation.

I think that confidence is on two levels. There is your overall kind of confidence level. So in your life, you have this overall well-being and feeling and just, you’re feeling great about your life and your confident about in general, which I think was the point You were looking at.

But we also have the—what we’re doing—activity-specific confidence, {right}. So if we’re doing something new, we tend to—even if we do have a great deal of confidence, which is going to allow us to do better in that regardless. Well, there’s also this aspect of, specificity or {o-}, off the confidence on a new task or the activity or the situation. And, that -- it can be useful to work on that, especially when it’s new to you to {ga-}, gain confidence in that area and then when you’ve got both, you’ve got the confidence in that area and you’ve got this overall confidence then {repeated word} that’s when you’re really, getting the most out of everything.

But I think there’s always this confidence curve for basically anything new. I mean even if you have great confidence, . And we all go for this learning curve, anxiety and frustrations with something new. And I love some of the guys out there who, are pretty famous and they’re doing well and , they get out there and say "Hey..." "...yesterday I was so frustrated."

and {repeated words} {one of} the {things} examples I’m thinking of right now is , {repeated words} {is the} series, "The Tim Ferriss Experiment"...

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. ..where {repeated word} {each} episode he has to learn something new, {right}, and he’s put into basically a new situation -- and I’m comparing this to dating because anything we’re learning in life is like a skillset in getting used to a situation and stuff and if it’s some things you’re not used to, {repeated word x 2} it’s like that.

And so {repeated word} {every} week he’s put into this completely new situation. I saw the one where he was, he was told like, you have to play the drums at this, this concert for this band you love, this famous band, {right}.

And, what I loved about it was you saw {repeated word} {his}—halfway through this huge frustration and anxiety he had about screwing up and, {repeated word} {not} being able to do it. And I think, all of us go through that area and we’re not confident at that stage and we’re wondering "Oh is this all going to hit the fan and go to hell?"

, so, I think {repeated word} {any} new situation and Tim Ferriss is obviously a pretty confident guy because {repeated word} {he’s} done well in a lot of things, now but, it’s nice to see that he still has, when he’s doing something new he still comes across those same feelings and lack of confidence

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. I totally agree that there are two different verticals in terms of developing confidence and , -- I guess to a point—yeah, the point I was making that it was,, you can’t entirely develop your confidence...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: in one or the other. I think it’s just got to be—Yeah, it’s got to be both really. You have to have that activity-specific stuff and just the overall confidence in life.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah and I {repeated word} {totally} agree with that and it’s typically what guys in this area of their life, they’ll work first on the kind of dating confidence and which {repeated word} {I guess} is a bit more practical because while you were talking about long-term, we should all be working to develop our lives.

And I think it’s good that you brought this up because some of the guys they’ll forget about the, the other aspect of their life. They’re just "I’m just going to focus on my dating and develop confidence and, develop skills and whatever in that area." But you’ll get to this crisis point where, it’s not working. It’s that you are getting results but you’re not getting more satisfied and you’re getting less satisfied and everything is not working because you can even end up sabotaging— I’ve seen guys do this quite a lot.

It’s {you}, you’ll end up sabotaging the rest of your life and undermine your confidence because you’re not, you’re not doing the other stuff we were talking about earlier. and so taking the focus off the rest of your life, which is a point you’re making is important, can actually sabotage your dating confidence because then you don’t have that confidence to—or of [check 1:20:17] your natural life to lean back on.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, {it}, and also, just a lot of people who only focus on something like dating, and they forget the rest, like you said they just put it in the background and don’t think about it. they’re not actually that interesting to talk to.

So {repeated words} {at a} conversational level, {it}, {repeated word} {they’re} gonna hit a wall as well because when you run out of experiences in your life and, to draw upon, when you’re having a conversation, You run the risk of becoming boring.

[Angel Donovan]: {repeated word} {Exactly}. And I’ll tell you exactly where this hits guys because I see it all the time. {repeated words} {It’s} when} , it’s when they want to go to the relationship stage, when they want a girlfriend rather than just meeting a girl, for a one night stand or, for a short fling. Well because the girls they quickly, find out that there’s not much going on in the guy’s life because he’s not talking about much, {right}.

So that’s -- then the guys will be "I can’t get a girlfriend. I'm seeing lots of girls, but I can never get girlfriends. And that’s what I want now," {right}.

And so guys I -- if you’re out there and this is your problem, this is one of the huge kind of factors behind that dynamic.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, that -- I think just having adventures in your life regularly are a good thing, {for}—to combat that, . And you of all people would know. You move a lot, so. Travel around the world and do all sorts of stuff, so...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. And I can tell you you—because you were talking about this earlier about all the stuff—you’ll differentiate your stuff from other men, just by having done this and most girls that talk to me are blown away when -- I just—it seems to me that there’s a scarcity of guys going out there and doing different stuff. I—because it’s not like I feel like I’m doing anything special. I—, for me it’s just not life as usual.

So I’m—I'm still kind of surprised when the girls are "Wow, you’ve done so much and you..." and, just being doing what I want to do. that’s all it is. So it seems like, to me, there’s not enough guys getting out there and doing what they actually want to do.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, and, well, that’s {sort of} attractive when you finally meet anybody who does that. You’re like "Oh, this person is awesome. I want to talk to them, I want to hang out with them, because I want to hear their stories because they’re out doing things, they’re having experiences."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, Well man it’s great to hear I -- we were talking about all the stuff you’re doing and, it’s great to hear all the stuff you’re doing, you’re—we were talking about you’re a musician, you’re into the nootropics, you’re into the neuroscience, you’re into the {test-}, you’re all into all of these things that you love. And you’re only 24 years old. That’s just amazing.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, I know I’ve been blessed to be able to figure out how to do this early on, so, it’s been good. I made the decision after college, I was like "Nope, no more school. I’m just gonna go start a company."

I started a company in my senior year in college. So that was how I left college. And I never tried to go get jobs and that {sort of} thing. I just tried to start a company. And that first one we actually failed miserably, just so I’m not painting,, too rosy of a picture. We lost a ton of money.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. I did that too with my first companies.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah. It’s just, we don’t want to paint this picture of like, "Oh yeah it’s just so easy to just go start a company." , you’re usually -- the first one or two, you’re just gonna just completely screw it up. But that’s usually how everyone does it. But you learn a ton and then it -- but it puts in your mind, it gives you that bug, where you’re like "I’m gonna always just go after whatever I want."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Christopher Walker]: And I think that’s a really healthy mindset, at least in my opinion, but...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. No, I'm completely with you. Even though it sucks at the time. You’ll look back and you’ll know that those were turning points, for you then, and it changed your life. In any case, building a business, even then, it’s always fun in a way, especially if you’ve got a partner, you’ve got a business partner who happens to be one of your friends or something. You can look back on those times and they were fun, despite, it being tough and a lot of stuff didn’t go your way, there’s still fun times and it’s worth the experience.

[Christopher Walker]: Yeah, exactly. I had a couple of business partners and we became {repeated word} incredible friends through all the crazy stuff that was going down, . Like at the time we were all so stressed out and everything, but now we’re such tight friends, that it was all worth it, .

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it’s one of those bonding experiences where, you’re in something together and, you’re both fighting to get to that same goal. It’s a great bonding experience for that too.

[Christopher Walker]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: So Chris this has been a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I think you’re a great role model, for the guys out there based, based on your life and what you’re doing. So it’s all—also being -- I didn’t think of that one when we got you on the podcast but, it’s been great talking to you from that perspective as well.

So, great to have you on the podcast, and, I hope you continue doing what you’re doing and continue giving an example out there.

[Christopher Walker]: Thanks dude. Yeah, I really appreciate you having me on the show. It’s been, actually really outstanding, great conversation. So thank you.