#103 Human Sexual Evolution: Leaving Orgasms Behind to Explore Orgasmic Experience with Diana Richardson

[Angel Donovan]: Diana, thanks so much for joining us today.

[Diana Richardson]: You're welcome. Thank you Angel for inviting me.

[Angel Donovan]: One of the quotes I fell across in one of your books was that "50 years of sex is equal to 15 minutes of orgasm." Is that true?

[Diana Richardson]: No.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. That's a great start.

[Diana Richardson]: It's more like this...I guess in way you can say it's like this but, in a life time or no, in a year, we have if we are lucky, 15 minutes of what we can call blissful experiences through sex. If you think about how much time we spent obsessing about sex, thinking about sex, longing for sex and then actually see these moments, these blissful or peak moments together (because an orgasm last a few seconds), you bring them together, it's 15 minutes per annum if you're lucky.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, 15 minutes per annum. That's if you're having like sex every week, three times per week or whatever the average is, I guess.

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, great. It's an interesting perspective because, obviously we're thinking about sex quite a lot in our lives and it seems over emphasized given that we're pretty goal-orientated in terms of getting to this orgasm. Do you feel that's the same for men and women? We're very focused on this orgasmic experience, like these few second of orgasm.

[Diana Richardson]: Yes absolutely and it's really like this...it's a conditioning. We are influence by invisible forces around us and we are conditioned through impression for what we see, especially now with porno, the visual aspect of sex. So, this has made a very deep imprint in us that we think this is how humans behave sexually and the basic belief is that sex equals a peak and a discharge experience.

Now, of course this has a function and it's essentially a reproductive function so that semen is released but in fact, a man only needs to ejaculate if he wants a child. Now, that's pretty...most people don't think that sex equals sex unless they cum or there's a peak in some way.

So to bring more depth and sincerity and to be to create love through sex, we really to re-evaluate the way we look at sex and how we are conditioned in sex and then start to...almost like we've got a shell around us and start to gently crack that shell and bring in a whole new vision of sex. It's not something we can just switch on and off because, we're in the pattern, we're in the habit for decades of having sex in a certain way but, when we start to experience the value of not rushing for that experience.

Normally we, "man enters woman and boom and you just go for the end." If you learn how to postpone that or even don't have that, you start to find that really sex becomes something like deeply nourishing, deeply fulfilling. It creates a lot of harmony in the relationship.

So, this goal-orientation, you know it's deeply in our psyche and then, the psyche pushes the body. So often we think, "Oh, my body wants it" but, it's really in the psyche. So, it is of value for a man, for a woman, for a couple to start to explore other avenues in sex, other than what we can call, "the conventional".

[Angel Donovan]: What would you think drives us towards this goal-orientated sex today. If there were a list of five things in our lives today which you feel are particularly to blame for driving towards this and do you feel like, two centuries ago it wasn't the same and it is really something that's occurring more in the modern world?

[Diana Richardson]: I can't say that but, what I can say, it is a conditioning. It's not what we are doing. It's some very, very deep imprint in our psyche.

[Angel Donovan]: So, you don't feel it's natural? It's not like we're born...

[Diana Richardson]: No.

[Angel Donovan]: ...with this. Okay.

[Diana Richardson]: No, we have the capacity but, we get too...like say in the case of men, of course he has the capacity to ejaculate and with that comes semen. So, for reproduction that function was necessary but, what we've stayed as a humanity is really stuck in that reproductive phase and function of sex where there's always a downward discharge of vitality and specifically for men, the capacity to create a life.

Now, you don't need to create a life every time you have sex. So, what's happened is that this...wanting this peak of energy and a discharge of energy is really deep in every thought and cell. So, certainly things like survival stress, tensions, this all increases the level of stress and then of course, more in the case of men than women, sex starts to be used a channel for discharging other stresses and tensions not actually anything to do with sexual vitality.

So, you can't say, "Boom, boom, boom." It's just that I've been working with couples for 23 years and every single person is conditioned in this way like 99.99%. There are some people who slip through and who are naturally more present and that is the thing that we are missing in the conventional sex. Is that because there's a goal, one's always ahead of one's self. It can be even a millisecond but, you basically focused on building up intensity and sensation.

So, there's a lack of presence because, you're ahead of yourself, you have a goal, so there's a high level of absence. Whereas actually, the way nature designed the body is that we have other options. The sexual energy, the vitality does not need to go downwards. That's a habit, that's a pattern, that's a conditioning. The way the body is designed is for energy to rise again if we don't discharge it.

So, it becomes a question of really investigating this very, very strong pattern for the sensation and for this intensity and my feeling is many people, that's the time in their life where they feel the most. So, it's quite difficult to disconnect from that or be open other possibilities because, it challenges very, very deep beliefs.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right so, in your experience, I mean, what have you seen that flips a guy to start thinking about this differently from being goal-orientated or being even technique-orientated which is mostly about...like there's a lot we hear about for example, techniques to get orgasm and things like that. So again, it comes back to this goal-orientation. What in your experience have you seen are kind of the big things that flip men to start thinking about your approach to it or thinking differently about and being open to change to look beyond that?

[Diana Richardson]: Well, I must say I do work with couples. At the same time, I have a lot of contact with single men and so now and not personally but, in my field. Very often with a couple it's because there's a complete breakdown in the sexual communication. People don't have...really stop having sex and this is really a symptom of conventional sex because, we start out all hot and horny and we just go for it. We pump, we peak and then eventually, the whole things burns out.

People...you know, men will come like, "My God, my woman doesn't want to make love with me anymore." Women lose interest tremendously in sex after this initial opening and it's not because women don't like sex or women or not open for sex but, a woman's body is very different to man's. It needs more time. So, women need much more time a) before man enters her and b) really to lengthen the act. Then, men really start to feel, "Wow, my woman is more open. I feel a lot more." So, men are very limited in the experience through what they create conventionally with women.

Other factor why men are interested is because of premature ejaculation or impotence. Now, premature ejaculation is very prevalent and getting more so and that's a lot to do with the tension in our society around sex and also this belief again in that sex equal intensity and building up and stimulation. So when the excitement gets too high, it just peaks out and then, there's the discharge.

Now, another thing that men become aware of is that after that discharge is a tremendous loss of energy. So, for like these few seconds and the moments leading up to it, the minutes, one is like totally plugged and then, you cum and then, boom. It's just like, "What was that all about?"

So, there's a feeling of disconnection, not wanting to relate to the woman anymore, women feel kind of abandoned, lonely, there's a lot of sadness. So, some men do recognize the loss of energy and...

With impotence...now, this is again, you know, this real stress that men have to have an erection. Men suffer tremendously from performance pressures that effect every act, you know, every action as he makes love and one of the performance stresses is this having an erection and having to have an erection before sex is possible however, there is also possible to put a penis in in his relaxed state.

So, these kind of things really open doorways for men that they don't have to first get horny, have an erection, maintain an erection, excite their woman, make her cum, hopefully before he cums. So, man's on a really big agenda knowingly or unknowingly so that it just...

Now, interesting with this erectile dysfunction because, with the introduction of porn...okay, it's always been in magazines but, now with the internet, it's so much more available that boys are beginning to see it younger and younger. So, different to my generation was that I didn't see sex before I had sex. Now, we have a whole generation of people growing who see sex before they have sex.

This makes a big impact, you know, especially on the sensation and this almost an addiction to the sensation, to the cumming, to ejaculating but, it's very destabilizing as an ongoing practice. Okay, once and a while is fine. The fact is is that erectile dysfunction, it used to be something.

I was reading recently. It used to be something that, you know was experienced by men from time to time over 40 and then of course 60 and so on more often but, now it is happening in boys of 18 years old, of 20, 25. So, in other words, when the genitals are used purely for sensation, they go numb on themselves. So, men then become like incapable of just responding in a natural energetic way to a woman or in a certain situation.

So, there are...especially the sex-addiction at the moment. It's a lot of marriages are suffering from that. That a man is in his study watching porno and a woman is hanging in watching television or reading a book or something. So, this misunderstanding about sex and lack of education in sex is a tremendous disturbance in we can say really the fabric of our society because, every individual is born as a sexual being. It's nature's way. This is how we reproduce but, there's no education to support that.

So, this is really why I call what I do "adult sex education", re-informing adults of the potential of the body that's built in my nature. It's not so much about the mind and the visuals and the stimulation and so on. There's more to come down to the body and access its intelligence there.

So, what makes a guy interested in changing? Well, there's also the thing of how many thousands of times do you do the same thing again and again and it's just like an adventurous spirit. Like, "Who am I if...?"

The main thing that I have become aware of through teaching couples and you know, certainly in my own life which was the starting point, the more people make love in a conscious way, because that is what's missing in our society and sex. It's not very conscious. People are involved, totally plugged in but, it's very much in routines and patterns.

So, when people make love in a conscious way, they really...from the present, really listening to the body, really understanding male energy, female energy, how they're different, then so...harmony is possible between couples and so many couples find love again. So, we are missing a whole aspect of the human potential because, we focused on this building and discharge.

The field that I'm involved in a really how to not build up to a peak. How to contain their energy so that it recirculates through the body and then becomes an...it's like you nourish yourself. You don't create another life.

So, it's quite a shift in perspective and like I said, it doesn't happen overnight. It does require a little bit of experimenting, perhaps a bit of studying, reading material or watching films, just to start to change the way we see sex and crack that little pattern of conditioning. Well, it's not so little. It's quite deep but, it's so interesting, Angel.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, thank you for all of that. You know, I had a lot of thoughts as you were going through that. So, I want to ask you a few more questions about that. You know, you've outlined a lot of reasons and a lot of situations for the guys at home that I'm sure a good part of them can relate to.

So one thing, if I'm thinking about this kind of goal-orientation and the high, I think today there's a fair amount of drug use today if we look at it more broadly. Okay, so if we look at coffee, alcohol, the other drugs as well, I think it's kind of mainstream, right? Everyone's taking something to feel better during the day to kind of give them that extra pump whether it's caffeine or something a bit more potent.

It strikes me that like potentially, this view towards sex is like coming from the same place. In a sense, it's an addiction to the high because, if you take all of the porn issue. You talked about the 18 and 25 year olds, they're getting used to masturbating at a young age and getting used to this high. I know in some cases, it's many, many times per day and they get into this routine of getting highs, right just to feel good to get that high keep coming.

So, one of things I think it's going to be for some guys especially if it's a very frequency habit and it's a frequency thing that they're looking for and as you've said, they've got to kind of condition themselves towards it because, once you've been doing it for a long time, it's like me, I can't quit coffee. I'm just like hopeless when it comes to that because, I love it so much.

[Diana Richardson]: Me too.

[Angel Donovan]: I'm very conditioned. I don't think coffee is so bad to be addicted to...

[Diana Richardson]: No.

[Angel Donovan]: ...but, in this case, you've outlined a lot of problems with being addicted to the high of orgasming. I can see it's going to be difficult for a lot of guys to kind of let go of that. Have you found that in your experience, potentially with younger...I don't know if you've been working with younger couples versus some of the older couples? 40s and so on, there might be a difference.

[Diana Richardson]: You know certainly, there's a shift from sensation to sensitivity and you know, sensation is much more like on the circumference; sensitivity is really in the core. So, it can be difficult for a man to learn to feel himself on a more deeper level but, I've been doing workshops, like I said for over 23 years. I do a 7-day workshop and that's not because I like to keep people for seven days but, it's because, really in seven days, I can anchor a person in a new way inside their bodies.

So, sex is an addiction and there are people who are dealing with this aspect. So, yes and people feel very lonely in their addiction and really are separated and so, I think a lot of people would like to come out but, there's no real positive input about sex other than what we see in the conventional.

In other words, men don't know really of other options. It's tremendously sad, tremendously sad that there's so much potential because, when we sink from sensation into sensitivity, then we can access the intelligence of the body. Then, energy flows between men and women without us having to do so much. So, there's other things imbedded in there.

There's this thing of, you know, we're very conditioned in doing not in being. We're conditioned in thinking not in feeling. So regrettably, it's not a switch one can just say, "Okay, I don't want this. I want this," but like all addictions, especially the heavier ones, it requires quit a lot of application to quit.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I was thinking of a couple other implications. We were talking about habits and conditioning. So, a lot of people both men and women have ways they like to cum. They found a way that works for them and I know I've been guilty in some of my relationships where we find this way that works for both of us.

You can get into a routine with that sometimes because, I was thinking maybe the people at home could recognize that they have this preference for one approach versus a more open kind of flowing experimentation. That might be a sign that this is affecting them negatively.

Maybe in the short term it doesn't have such an impact but for sure, we can all admit that if we get into this routine, then it starts, (no matter if that routine is giving both of you great orgasms and so on) after a while, it always going to be old. Would you say for people who have found these kind of patterns, I mean they have to kind of let go of them right?

My favorite approach to this...so, like a guy, he might always like a certain position, right? Some guys always like to be cumming from behind for example but, some guys aren't able to cum unless they're in a certain position and women also. So, is it letting go of those kind of patterns and having the, I don't know, the longer term perspective to start experimenting to explore again?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes it is and it's not like you can let go of those patterns overnight but, you can certainly postpone them. You can certainly make love for three, fours and then, go into your special position and cum. Part of it is about the length of time. Human beings don't make love for long enough because, we just get in there and go for it.

So, it's about becoming more present, more here and now, taking it moment by moment, no fixed agenda and just to be more human with each other, more open to each other, open to yourself. Yeah, like I say, you can always cum eventually if you want to and at the same time, it's also very interesting but this can be down the road to like, "How do I feel if I don't come?"

What I want to say, you said something about younger people. Maybe I'm going back a question or two but, the younger people as far as sensitivity goes, they can regain it more quickly than older people because, they haven't been so long in the practice. Yeah but, of course boys are starting at that much earlier.

[Angel Donovan]: We've had other people come on the podcast before and we've spoken about the younger generation and I know, like in our coaching also, I find that the younger generation (so they're in their 20s now), you know they've grown up with internet porn and stuff. So, they've grown up with this habit already whereas, when I was a teenager, we just didn't have that access to that. So, they've grown up in this new environment. You've added this positive perspective that I haven't heard before that when you're younger, it's easier to turn around?

[Diana Richardson]: Well, yes certainly and I've also noticed that with the sexual conditioning, like younger couples. The youngest couple I've had is like 19 and 20. The oldest couple I've had is 78 and 82 and yeah amazing and it's always...

[Angel Donovan]: It's never too late to start.

[Diana Richardson]: Absolutely and the younger the couple, the easier it is for them to let go of the conditioning or just to like try something else but, as we get older, you know the ego gets stronger, we get more and more identified, more and more afraid of trying something new. So, certainly I've noticed as far as conditioning goes, the young ones, they flip back and they can see the value, they experience the value. For them, it's like, "Oh, I'm not cumming, no problem," whereas an older man will fight for his right to cum.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, that's something you've actually seen? This kind of like a pattern, you've seen the older the guy is the more he will fight for...

[Diana Richardson]: Because, that conditioning is so deep, sex equals cumming and to kind of, "Maybe you don't want to cum for this week." You know, so for men (of course I'm talking generally), this spins them out but, we always say, "If you want to cum..."

We don't teach any or advise any kind of sexual repression of cumming. In other words, if you want to cum, you cum. You don't try and this point of no return, repressed, point of no return, repress. You know what I mean? This is really unhealthy because, there are a lot of techniques, Taoists techniques to stop the ejaculation at a certain...when you're just about to cum is not good. It just adds tension to tension.

[Angel Donovan]: Oh that's interesting. So, you mean like the Kegel exercises?

[Diana Richardson]: The Kegel exercises as I understand them is more for women but, I might be completely wrong with toning the vaginal muscles but, there is this thing, you can push into the perineum and block the tubes and block the cum. There's different techniques but, people think that's like enhancing in the experience but, in the long term...it's a short term blast but, it's creating a lot of congestion in the genitals.

But, I wanted to go back to your question, Angel about cumming and orgasm because, actually in the tantric field (and I haven't really defined that yet and I will), we bypass the orgasm because that's a downward flow of energy. So, it's not like we bypass it. We just don't create the circumstance for it to happen because it's a very consciously created thing, this cumming. We really know how to do it. We know the ingredients and like you say, we have a routine to cum.

So in a way, we have to unwind that and just bypass it and then, when you contain the energy and learn just to relax and be in sex and really like letting the genitals talk to each other, then one can have what is called an orgasmic experience. This is something very, very, very different to an orgasm because, an orgasmic is like when you become pure energy, totally dissolved with everything and pure peace and harmony. Many of us have had that experience alone in nature, different situations but, very rarely do we have that in sex.

So, that is the potential of the body is just an orgasmic state and it's again, it's not something you could say, "I want to have an orgasmic state." It's more through awareness, through being present, through being conscious, that you create the situation for one to arise. Now, when you've had one of those, it fulfills you. It'll stay with you for the rest of your life. You could just close your eyes and feel it. So, there is this shift from orgasm to orgasmic but, you can't make orgasmic a goal.

[Angel Donovan]: Just on the Kegels, to follow up, I mean, a lot of people talk about Kegel exercises for me. I think it's just the same area where you're preventing yourself...maybe you have a different word for it?

[Diana Richardson]: No actually, I think basically what you're talking about is it's a pelvic flow exercises.

[Angel Donovan]: Yes.

[Diana Richardson]: Exercises for the area, the whole mesh of muscles and that surrounding the genitals and so on. I didn't know they were for men also. This is healthy to tone the area but, again it's how you do it, not to just squeeze and be mechanical because, already we lack sensitivity down there so, it makes no sense just to be thinking about something else and tight and relax, tight and relax, tight and relax. If you do it consciously and really pull up very slowly in five, seven seconds and then, relax very slowly in five, seven seconds and do a repetition of those, now this is healthy.

The other is that because, we have a lot of unconscious tensions in the body, one of the areas we carry a lot of tension is in the pelvic floor. So, most people if you take your awareness to the pelvic floor, you'll find, "Oh my God, I'm holding it up." So, relax it again and again during the day, also when you make love. So, to start to bring a new perspective into sex also requires generally being more conscious in the body during the day or anything that you do because, in that sense as humans, we've become really mechanical.

[Angel Donovan]: And this shouldn't be anything new for anyone because, there's a lot of...we hear a lot about meditation. We've spoken about meditation here and building more presence on our lives, helping to destress and so on and the modern is more stressful and so on. So for a lot of people, this is...it's pretty mainstream information about us not being as present today shouldn't be like a real shock.

[Diana Richardson]: Yes but, to bring that, pull that into sex, it's another level.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right, right, right so, they're not aware that it's taking place...

[Diana Richardson]: Oh yes, I see what you mean because, I said about, "Be more present in life in general." Yes absolutely. It's becoming more globally accepted.

[Angel Donovan]: How have...you're saying this is really essential to sex and it's going transform it to an orgasmic experience. So, I wanted to a little bit about more how can we understand what orgasmic experience...to give people a real perspective of what it is they're missing out. So, one thing you said was it will change the way you look at life if you just have one of those.

So, it sounds like meditative...like people talk about these kind of experience with meditations, other things where it's actually like, you were saying a sexual experience could be something that changes your life where I think a lot of people are having sex wouldn't say that you know one of their sexual experiences has changed the way they look at things or they think back to that and it's changed the way they view things anyway. Is that appropriate? Is that what you're saying?

[Diana Richardson]: Actually, what I said was is that if you have an orgasmic experience, you can feel if for the rest of your life.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, what does that mean?

[Diana Richardson]: In other words, it's recorded in your body in the cells as light. When you have an orgasmic state, it's not about the other person. It's about you. You relax very, very, very deeply into the body, into the present and learn just to be in the senses and that's when they will arise and when you just...there's not much ego. It's like, "I want. I need." One is very natural, one is honoring the body, one is not imposing anything on the body and then, there's no time. One slips out of time.

So, you go very deep into yourself and you go into this timeless state which can last five seconds, five hours, 15 hours. The quality's always the same. You can recall. You can consciously recall that experience and you feel it vibrating in the cells. So, it stays with you for the rest of your life.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, still trying, still trying to make this a bit more practical for people at home in terms of them trying to get their head around it. I mean, the way I look at this is like, I think I've had the kind of experiences you're talking about. I've done orgasmic meditation, whatever, these kinds of experiences and I've also just made love with girlfriends and being open to some of the practices without having looked at your work but, I've looked other places.

Some of the practices I see from some of your books then connected with someone and we've had these deeper experiences and longer love making sessions. So, the way I see, it's kind of like your mind goes to this new place that you haven't experienced before. So, it's a feeling and once you've been there before, you kind of know where it is.

It's a bit like meditation. As you grow, you practice your meditation. One day, you manage to get to a new place and now that you found it, you're able to go back there and it's kind of like, you know where the reference is. Is that something you're talking about in terms of it changing the way you look at things going forward and you know, you have this reference "orgasmic experience."

[Diana Richardson]: I would not say it's like an essential experience to have in the beginning. It's something that will happen in time if you sincerely practice in the ways suggested. It's just to even relax in sex and to be there is so nourishing. So again, it's not to make orgasmic experience a goal again but, I'm just saying that's the potential of the body which is beyond the mind, beyond the psyche.

But it means that we are more conscious in the body and present in the body and as you do that (orgasmic experience to the side), but as you become more present, less focused on the goal, you will see how it...you feel so different about yourself as a person, about your day, about people around you, about your partner. You're just a much more loving person and more tolerant, more patient.

So, it has a lot of impact. Now, it is difficult to try and convince somebody's mind to try something new. If the mind wants to know everything before we step into something, it's just not going to work. It's one of these things that can only really be tasted through experience.

[Angel Donovan]: So, one of the things you mentioned was that it's longer in terms of duration. How long would you say it is compared to...

[Diana Richardson]: Oh, it can be anything. Three hours and upwards, two hours and upwards, I mean my longest was 13 hours. I spent three weeks in bed once making love constantly so,...

[Angel Donovan]: That's pretty impressive. Is that a world record?

[Diana Richardson]: Well, I haven't checked the Guinness Book.

[Angel Donovan]: During that time, did you kind of lose yourself or were you present all the time would you say?

[Diana Richardson]: Oh no, no, no absolutely plugged into the present moment. There was no time, there was no day, there was no night. So no, occasionally one had to have pee breaks and so on and maybe something liquid at least.

[Angel Donovan]: Eat food.

[Diana Richardson]: So definitely, one can extend the time indefinitely. So really, it's a matter of choice and also it doesn't necessarily have to...you can just stop anytime. You can just say, "Okay, well we have an appointment now. We need to go out. Thanks. Lovely," have a kiss and finish. It's not always has to finish with a bang and that is the interesting part for people to explore because, it's through that one starts to then, "My God, I feel different as a person."

Now, I was early 30s when I started this. I was living in India and ran into some information and then thought, "I'm going to try." Honestly, I was so blown away how different I felt as a person and just in the smallest of ways and that's what kept me going not because, I had any grand orgasmic experiences in the beginning.

So, that is the difficulty when one is in a field let's say for instance, I'm a supposedly tantric teacher and through teaching when one gives people a new perspective, a new vision to grow into, then one subtly creates goals but, that is so difficult to avoid. So, for a couple, a person to start an individual is just to be more present not build up the sensation, to keep relaxing, to breathe deep, to have eye contact, to relax women the vagina, men to relax the anus and the perineum, women and not be so...

[Angel Donovan]: So yeah. So, you're talking about some of the practical things people should do if they want to start practicing this.

[Diana Richardson]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Say someone's been convinced that this is something that's going to help them for all the reasons we've been discussing. What would be the first steps you would encourage a guy to try, maybe some exercises..

[Diana Richardson]: Well, usually I have people in my presence when I'm working with people but, it's definitely take people into the body and we have this, again a conditioning that when we're next to somebody, you know the opposite sex or whatever, out attention is totally on them. There's very little attention in ourselves, maybe in our thoughts but, not actually physically in a sensual level in the body. So, the first thing is to really come back to one’s self, be comfortable with one’s self.

[Angel Donovan]: How do you do that in practical terms? Do you put your focus on parts of your body or...?

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, so it's good to look into your body...

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Diana Richardson]: ...and find a place that's easy for you to feel. Now, 95% of people can do that because, "Oh, it's my solar plexus. Oh, it's my heart. It's my belly. It's my back, my lower back." Find a place that you feel like anchors you in the body and then start to...whenever you notice you're in thought to come back to that. So, you start to not be so much in thinking but, more in feeling and in the senses.

[Angel Donovan]: So when you saying anchoring, it means stopping you from wondering, thinking and you're able to just focus on the sensation.

[Diana Richardson]: Exactly so, in other words, basically the way we are as humans, we are bodies carrying around minds. Now, this is the wrong way around. We need to be minds that are lodged in a body but, it's really, the mind is over emphasized. So, there's very little body awareness, body consciousness. Everybody's talking where there's not much back-flow going into one's own body. We're very happy to talk. We're so happy to listen.

So the first thing is for, when I work with couples and also women on their own (I used to do groups with singles, I don't anymore), but it's to go back into your own body as the starting point because, that's the bridge, not the mind. That body is the bridge to the present moment.

So, if you really want to be present, you don't think about being present. You sink into your body and your body is present. I mean, it is here. You can stroke it right now. It's here.

So, your body is the bridge and your body is the bridge also to our higher experiences but, it always goes over the body. I mean, I don't know if you remember this Genesis song, I think it was, "You've Got in to Get Out" and it's really a reality. If you want to get out, go beyond yourself, you've got to get into yourself.

Practically speaking, a person needs to have more awareness, how they walk, how they stand. If you're talking to somebody, stand on both legs. Don't stand on one leg, this moves you out of the present moment. Keep relaxing, men the pelvic floor and bring the awareness into the perineum especially.

Basically, you want a global body awareness but, keep anchoring because, this perineum area for me is what we can call in tantra, "The Male Positive Pole" and this is where energy is raised in man and this is not to do with getting horny and excited but, this is how men accesses his sexual energy is in the perineum or how to raise it, we can say. The perineum is like a knotty tendon in the central of the pelvic floor where all the muscles come to form and it's like directly in front of the anus in men and women. So, with women it's a little space between anus and vagina, entrance of vagina and men...if men just feels up, there's like this is knotty area.

[Angel Donovan]: Is it between the anus and testicles, right in that midpoint?

[Diana Richardson]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Diana Richardson]: Exactly so, if you contract, like you're stopping the flow or urine and then, you put your finger there just in front of the anus, you'll feel like a little knot and that's the perineum, the little knot of muscles. So, the pelvic floor muscles are like a parachute and it pulls up into the central tendon. So, that's an important place to relax day by day and for men, as an anchor point that's really very good.

Also good is to scan the body. You know, we have so many unconscious tensions in the body, the jaw, the shoulders, the belly, solar plexus, genitals as I mentioned before. Just keep softening the body, softening the body because, every time we do that, we increase the consciousness in the body.

Also, we're making love. If the bottom is tight, the buttocks are squeezed up and men are pushes the anus, taxing the anus. Relax of this helps them much more to contain his vitality. Also, when men enters women, not just to push into her. Always use some kind of lubrication, go in very, very, very, very slowly and this really helps women to relax, to open to feel and received men but, if men are just pushing himself into women, she's defending and the vagina, you see, she's designed to receive the penis.

You look at her form, you look at the penis form, one's a canal, one's a conduit, one's a receiver. So, we're actually not using the genitals in these forms at all. We're using them more like joysticks, you know, rubbing, friction, stimulating, not as conduit and receiver in a complimentary fashion.

[Angel Donovan]: One of the things I read in your book which I think captures what you've been talking about now, becoming more aware of our bodies and so on is you said, "Presence and awareness are more important than positions."

[Diana Richardson]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Which is of course is very counter-intuitive versus the mainstream where all our magazines are talking about different positions and so on.

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah but, if you just switched off and mechanical in a position, it doesn't change the position. What makes the position is who is in the position. If a person is in the awareness then, any position is great but, you know, conventional sex is just...it's very superficial shall we say and it's not accessing the deeper part of us as humans and as a result there's a lot of misunderstanding on happiness, misery, yeah with this basic force of life.

So, when one starts to bring more awareness there then, yeah you get to know yourself better. You understand yourself better. You understand men. You understand women. You understand what sex is really about and that is life changing.

Like I said, I started early 30s. I had no idea that I would end up being able to do what I do. It was just that through the little shifts, it happened over many years and suddenly, I was...well, suddenly, lonely, I was viewing the whole thing from like a completely, completely different perspective.

Then, people started to ask me about it because, I was living in a certain situation with people who were aware what was going on and I found it really easy to talk about. Actually, I was a body work teacher prior to that. So, body and me are one family and...

[Angel Donovan]: What is a body work teacher?

[Diana Richardson]: Body work as in deep tissue work, reflexology, therapeutic massage and so on.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, deep tissue massage and things like that.

[Diana Richardson]: So, I was body connected. So anyway, I found I could talk quite easily about the subject and then, that kind of like...I decided to write a book and see if I could...whatever, whatever. So, one things lead to another. So, it's not like I went somewhere and trained.

It's just through putting very small pieces in place in the fundament, in the foundation. This then just very slowly over years had a completely different...it just changed my life in different ways and evolved into now written six books and teaching people for over 20 years and extremely successfully and I'm interested in the success. Success is nice but, it's not success per se I'm talking about. It's success in the sense of people responding to a certain body of information. So when I started 20 years ago, 23 years ago, I had for a week two, three couples and I was in Europe. I'd just come from India and there was a lot of tantra in the field.

[Angel Donovan]: Could you compare yourself to tantric because, we hear a lot about tantra and I think it's very varied from what I've seen. The word tantra I feel has been abused and there's a lot of marketing and so, there's also just things that people could come across. Do you consider yourself tantra or do you basically just consider yourself, what you are doing and it's kind of unique and independent?

[Diana Richardson]: I would say it's unique and that's why in Europe, I found a niche and it's just overflowing but, I would go so far as to say it's original tantra. It's the original.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, you feel that it comes from the roots?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, it's the basic human design and I do agree with you that there's a lot of misinterpretation of tantra, a lot of abuse through tantra, a lot of misunderstanding in the tantric field, also with teacher. There's always this conventional edge to it somewhere between the lines.

So certainly, I've evolved through self-practice. Also, I did have inputs from two spiritual masters, not person inputs but, written inputs. It was something that really just grew very, very organically and with a lot of revelations and insights along the way but then, later getting confirmation on my insights.

[Angel Donovan]: For seeing the success of your students? I don't know if you call them students.

[Diana Richardson]: As I was evolving my experience then, I would have an experience and then, I'd read it with one of my masters and thought, "Ah, Okay." They're recognizing like the land marks as I was going along but, from the success with the students, like I said, two or three couples I started with. You know, I work with my partner as well.

Honestly, I discovered that what we were doing, nobody else is doing and then, I watched four couples, five couples, six, seven, eight and interesting was it was just like amidst this big field (1993 it was of tantrum but, it's even bigger now), that people who had done everything in the tantric field were coming and just finding a totally new dimension. I have say that I'm amazed today what's happening. Like, I had to do nine retreats a year and everyone has...

[Angel Donovan]: And these are all seven days long?

[Diana Richardson]: All seven days and everyone has 50 people, 25 couples and people have to book a year in advance or get on a long waiting list.

[Angel Donovan]: So what, I mean, what happens at these...?

[Diana Richardson]: Well, that's another subject.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, people are going to be curious. Is it practical, like...?

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, very, very practical. Very practical.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Diana Richardson]: And the special...everyone has their private room.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Diana Richardson]: First day, there's no nudity, there is no personal exposure.

[Angel Donovan]: Mmm.

[Diana Richardson]: We do it in a very professional way. You are committed to your couple for the week. We do stuff with the body each works individually like this anchoring that I was telling you about and then, certain Tai Chi and certain, you know to bring people more present in the body, we do dancing which is nice. Then, we have a talk every day, just putting in some keys and changing a little bit the perspective and over seven days, we take it through a whole change in vision but...

[Angel Donovan]: You kind of give them homework to go back to their rooms?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, exactly, then they get homework and they have some time to do that. So, it's very practical every day, one built on the other.

[Angel Donovan]: So, a couple of the main things that come from your book says is two concepts I picked were "the slow sex." Obviously, you've got the whole book about that and you have "The Love Keys." Could you give us a quick overview of what those are and what they mean?

[Diana Richardson]: You know, I've written six books now and they all basically, the material is the same. It's just more the perspective. So, "The Heart of Tantric Sex" was the first book and that's really for couples. "The Love Keys" is part of "The Heart of Tantric Sex" and these are very simple keys to help to bring you into the awareness, eye contact, the breath, touch and caressing, awareness in the genitals, less goal-orientation.

"Slow Sex" is again the same information but written from a different perspective that talks to different people. That's more, they call it "metabolic enhances", "universal metabolic enhancers" and I didn't know that I was involved in those until I read a certain book but, there's certain things like awareness, presence, relaxation, all these kind of things that change your experience and they are known as "universal metabolic enhancers."

So, "The Slow Sex" book is written more through those windows whereas "The Heart of Tantric Sex" is written more through, "Okay, now we're a couple and we're going to try these different love keys." So, it's a matter of which window.

I did write a book for women, again from the women's perspective. I wrote a book for men and that was called "Tantric Sex for Men" and this I can really recommend men to read. It's written with my partner Michael and that is from the male perspective, really giving him a new vision of sex, of his penis, what a wonderful instrument it is, how to use it in a way that conveys energy, that channels energy, how to access his woman on a deeper level.

[Angel Donovan]: Right so, some of the love keys contained in your "Heart of Tantric Sex", we've already spoken about one of them. It was genital consciousness, right? We just talked about the perineum and there are a few others which I think people could relate to. Eyes and breath, I think are some of the obvious ones. So, you basically go into how to use these aspects of our senses to connect with the other person. Is it kind of the goal and feel more present in ourselves?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes I mean, with eyes often, we're making love in the dark or with closed eyes so, that easily leads to fantasy and absenting one's self in different ways of thinking about dinner or...

[Angel Donovan]: When we're closing our eyes, you mean?

[Diana Richardson]: Well, with closed eyes it's easier to fantasy.

[Angel Donovan]: Because it's kind of funny, it's kind of like a standard, right to have your eyes closed when you're making love which is a strange, strange standard now that I think about it but (I haven't really thought about that before but), yeah it's kind of like in the films. It seems like there some kind of silent standard there. Is that what you found?

[Diana Richardson]: Absolutely and certainly through opening the eyes, you become more present, you become more connected and also the eyes contact us more to love in the heart but, we do teach a certain way to use the eyes and that is like what we call "soft vision" or "receptive vision". You know, normally when we look, we're looking out of ourselves.

We look at something and it's to reverse the vision that something looks at you. In other words, the tree looks at you or the flower looks at you instead of you look at the flower and that really opens the heart and makes more present, makes one feel more kind of like vulnerable which is good because, then you're more open too yourself and the other person.

Breath, "breath bridges" is a very powerful tool. It bridges from mind to body. There's nothing quite so fast but, the point is to keep the awareness on the breath long enough but, through just consciously breathing, no special breathing, just taking a deep downwards to belly, to genitals, in that direction, that's a tremendous help.

[Angel Donovan]: These are the kind of things you can practice with your partner. One of the concerns I had was that (which I mentioned just before we started) was say I'm a guy and I'm interested in this and I'd like to practice this however, the girl I'm with, she's very used to the traditional, goal-focus approach of getting to orgasm. How do I breech this topic with her? Start communicating or leading her or asking her to join me on this new journey, this exploration?

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, it really depends if it's somebody that one has kind of a long term or even, you know that one is together with or if one is just having a one-night-stand. Obviously, with a one-night-stand it's more difficult but, I think if a man just in himself tries to be more present and connecting with a woman, this will slow the woman down, also bring her back.

So, this is actually the power of presence. It's not 100% unfortunately but, if one person is present then, quite naturally the other person becomes more here now. So, if it's like you're just meeting somebody for the first time having love Men, don't try to enter the woman too fast. Give her time to warm up because, her sexual energy warms slower and just to be more present.

You know, not too much on a program, not going forward like, trying to stimulate her too fast and so on because, the more excited the woman is, the more difficult it is for the man to sustain himself in terms of ejaculation. I mean ideally, one would need to educate one's self a little bit in the sense of read a book or two, you know because, it's not all coming from natural or go to a course or basically inform one's self.

[Angel Donovan]: This is a journey. So, people start and I can imagine that they're evolving over years. Could you give us some kind of idea of once people kind of set off on this journey? Do you see them changing a lot over time? Does it take a long time or is it...could you give us some idea of what happens?

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, really it is something that extends really forward into the rest of your life if that is your wish because, it brings such a qualitative change to one's life, one some much more harmonious with one's self, with your partner, with your family, with your job, much more creative and the feedback...I mean, I know from my life what it did but, you know what I hear from couples how much simpler things became.

[Angel Donovan]: In terms of communication, like their relationships you mean?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, simpler, more flowing, more easy, they laugh in general, their relationships, their communication, much less emotionality, much less fighting because, we do deal with that in our courses.

[Angel Donovan]: It's funny that it seems like a lot the fights, the conflicts, there's often a sexual dimension behind them. Is that something you see or you would assume?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, no most problems come down to a sexual problem.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, in terms of a sexual miscommunication?

[Diana Richardson]: Miscommunication but also misunderstanding because, we don't know that men and women are so different from each other. Things like loss of interest, you know this kind of thing. Women, like I said earlier, women are not disinterested in sex it's just after a while, the body goes, "Oh, well it's hardly worth it" but, if the woman is really given time for her body to awaken and women's sexual energy is raised through her breasts, not her clitoris and this is a huge misunderstanding.

Women's bodies actually, that's why she needs time because, it's through the breast that accesses the deeper receptive to the vagina and I'm not talking about stimulating nipples and this kind of stuff. I'm talking about women entering her breast, being in her breast, men loving a woman's breasts.

[Angel Donovan]: So, her being aware, more present in her breasts and feeling them and...?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Right because, this is something I did pick up in your book and I found interesting. So, you will a greater awareness of the breasts and...so, you say guys are not stimulating the breast. What do you mean in terms of the guy’s interaction?

[Diana Richardson]: Well, guy often will go to a woman's breast. They know it makes a woman horny but, they will just like go for the nipples right away. Then after a while, what happens to a woman is that they cannot stand their breast to be touched. Also, if a woman's done a lot of breast feeding, she might have the same thing.

I have to say, that's like a short fuse but, the thing is just to...put a...a man really to just hold a woman's breasts with love. Raise them a little bit. Don't squash them from the top. Pick them up from underneath and just to channel a loving energy into them and this helps a woman open to herself and to her own body and so on.

[Angel Donovan]: When you say, when you say channel love and energy into them, is that just for giving his attention on them or...?

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, being present. It's not a doing, it's just like feeling the warmth, feeling the texture, just being there. Then of course, love is transmitted in those moments.

[Angel Donovan]: So, when a guy's in this mode of paying attention and he's really in the moment of enjoying her breasts, that's kind of the same thing isn't it? Rather than....because, you were talking earlier about...we were talking a minute ago about him kind of being goal-orientated. He's trying to stimulate them to get a response from the girl versus, being in the moment and enjoy her breast and enjoying his interest in them and stroking them and so on.

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, that is very different. That's not goal-orientated. It's understanding that, "Oh wow, this part in a woman is how, it's her life giving pole." Just as the male pole, the perineum, the penis everything, that's the life giving pole creates semen, in women the life giving pole sustains life.

So, this is where a woman's energy is raised. It's also connected to the heart. The main thing is for men not to focus on woman's clitoris as a way of opening her and getting her turned on. Leave the clitoris alone.

[Angel Donovan]: I love that. "Leave the clitoris alone."

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, rather come to the breasts, rather go into kissing, you can also suck the breasts but, again not in this horny style, more like in an innocence child-like way. Yeah and rather than stroke, just really hold them, not squeeze them but, to basically help a woman to shift her focus up also because, women also, very interested in the clitoris.

It's so interesting that 30% of woman have never had an orgasm and 70% of women have never had orgasm during penetration and this is because, we've shifted outside the woman's body. Like so, most women who have an orgasm, nothing to do with the penis and the vagina, it has to do with the stimulation of the clitoris but, really the deeper experience is the more delicious experience, it comes from penis in vagina and if we start to play with the clitoris in the beginning, we disturb the vagina. She begins hungry, horny, demanding and this also totally affects man's erections as well. It affects his capacity to be a conduit.

Important to realize is that a woman's energy raises from the breast, not the clitoris and rather when a man enters a woman to go in slowly and he feel the difference between going into an open vagina and a welcoming vagina than a horny, excited vagina. There is something I have to tell you. I hope I'm not talking too much.

This is interesting is that you know, over the years I've been teaching...now look, tantra is not glue, it's awareness. So, there are couples who have been with me who have separated for whatever reason. Sometimes, people have too much past or whatever, doesn't matter. People do separate but, you know what started to happen?

People started to come back with a new partner but, do you know who came back? The men, if 100 men have come back with their new partners, maybe 20 women have come back with their new partners.

[Angel Donovan]: So, they separated because, I'm guessing one person opened up more to your teachings?

[Diana Richardson]: Whatever, there's 101 reasons why people separate. The point I'm trying to make is that people do come back because, they find it of value but, who comes back is the men because, they find it to be so tremendously valuable to start to make love in a different way. They want to let their new woman know as soon as possible that this alternative exists because, when a man is received by a woman, this is like something totally different to, you know just this back and forth, friction, sensation-style thing so...

[Angel Donovan]: Do you think there's also the bias, like men tend to take charge and lead more therefore, they might feel more comfortable asking someone to come to your course?

[Diana Richardson]: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head there and it's really like this. Women are so afraid to lose a man. When they get a man, they're so afraid.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Diana Richardson]: Especially in the sexual field, they want to please a man and as women, that's one of our biggest, hard to say disturbance is that we're very hopped on pleasing a man because, we're just afraid if he doesn't like what we do, he's going around the corner and find someone who will.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I was going to say...like because, I was thinking about this earlier. I've had problems in the past where I didn't cum with a girl I was with and she would get upset about it and drama and stuff would ensue because, she was upset about it. It's difficult to convince her that you were interested in her and you love her because, again we go back to this goal-orientation of most people where, "There's no orgasm then, I'm not happy with you."

[Diana Richardson]: Well, it's like this with women, there's a deep conditioning that when a man cums, he gives himself to you. So when he doesn't, then, he's holding something back but, the funny thing is the opposite is true. When he doesn't cum, he is giving himself to you.

So, this is something that women have to see but, actually for men to cum again and again and again is disempowering. It eats at the fabric of love and the harmony and...so, women are equally conditioned as men but, as men are conditioned in performance and putting the whole act together, women are like pleasing him.

Saying, "Yes, you can come into my body now when I'm not ready." Women have pain during sex they will never say it's painful because, they're afraid to say it's painful not nice.

[Angel Donovan]: I realized you've said a couple of things that I'm not sure I understand and might not people at home. So, you said there's a difference a horny and one that welcomes you. What does that mean?

[Diana Richardson]: Well you see, if you go to magnetics, in a magnetics and it's something, you know I've touched on briefly is this...basically, we're like a magnet on the inside. We have a positive pole, an energy raising pole and an absorbing pole. That's how the planet is. That's how humans are.

So, we have...and that's the tantric design is there's like in a magnet in every individual. Now in a woman, her energy raising pole, like I explained before is the breasts. That's her life-giving pole. That's her positive pole.

Her receptive pole is the vagina. Man is the converse. His energy raising pole is the penis. His receptive pole is the chest and the heart. When I talk about a woman's breast, I'm also talking about the heart.

So, this that male sexually energy is raised very quickly. Boom, men are ready for sex. Women are like that because, her energy is raised over the breast, she really needs time before she feels that she wants a man to enter her. So, a man gives time and a woman understands how she is and also the clitoris is left more in the background, the vagina then becomes how to say receptive, really can...has the power and it's receptivities of power, the power to absorb and move the male energy through her.

[Angel Donovan]: Does that mean it's more relaxed? I've seen where... in other program and stuff where the women learn to relax their vagina muscles more versus having it be tense which isn't the same as it being tight which I think most men can relate. You know, a vagina being tight and dry where she's not at all ready versus wet and open. Then, we're talking about something here right?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, yes. I'm also talking about...you know, a lot of women do consciously tighten the vagina to make it...the stimulation. So, that is not necessary, that woman should not do.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, so we're talking about in terms of being accepting, she's more relaxed or her muscles in her vagina will be more relaxed?

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, but it's more like when the energy...it's like we're a magnet and our energy is raised in the positive pole, it filter down. It opens the tissues in the negative pole, the vagina. Then, the vagina has the capacity to absorb male energy, male vitality to let it move through her.

But, if it's just on the superficial level, getting horny, excited, the vagina is no longer receptive. She's changed her whole quality. So, that's what I mean by when a woman's hungry and horny, the vagina will have a demanding quality, a hungry quality.

[Angel Donovan]: It sounds to me like letting down your emotional walls, like feeling the connection from when someone enters you in your vagina? So, she's really feeling it rather than just stimulation. Letting it get to her emotions, accessing her emotions, you know instead of having her defenses up and keeping it superficial.

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, and that certainly will happen through being more conscious. If a man enters a woman consciously, honestly she opens but, it is good if a man doesn't be too in hurry to enter a woman. The more time she can have the more ultimately, it will be beneficial to a man himself.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I think a lot of guys can relate to that. It's also to do with the anticipation, also the whole experience of it. The longer it goes on, it tends to be better the quality of sex and the experience.

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, well this has been a very interesting chat, Diana.

[Diana Richardson]: Oh great, Angel.

[Angel Donovan]: Thank you, thank you very much.

[Diana Richardson]: I'm glad we did it.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, thank you very much for your time. I've got a few more questions to round off. The first of which is just to help people find you. Are you on Twitter? Where do you hang out? Where can people connect with you?

[Diana Richardson]: Actually, on my website www.LivingLove.com.

[Angel Donovan]: Alright cool. So, they just go there and...

[Diana Richardson]: Or www.LoveforCouples.com.

[Angel Donovan]: Alright cool, very straightforward to find you there and all your stuff.

[Diana Richardson]: But, it's the same site. Yeah, and there they can connect me but, I don't have Facebook and Twitter.

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Who beside yourself would you recommend for advice in this area? Have you learned from people? Are there people you've come across who you value their...

[Diana Richardson]: The sources that I used were Arsha, Indian spiritual master and Barry Long an Australian spiritual master. Both are deceased. This is honestly weird to say this but, I don't know anybody working in the same way that my partner and I are working because, we are working primarily with awareness, not technique.

So, that's what's unusual about what we do. We do have people trained. Like in the UK, we have a couple trained to teach our work. In Germany, we have two couples. In Australia, we have a couple. In France, we have a couple. So, there are people who be able to continue or are continuing the work also once I...

[Angel Donovan]: We don't want to think about that. You're talking about retiring or something worse, I think. So, moving on.

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so a final question. We ask this of everyone. What would be your top three recommendations to guys to start down this path? What would be the first three steps you would recommend that they take, as simple as possible?

[Diana Richardson]: First of all, to be more focused on yourself and not so focused on the other and that...what I mean is to have more body awareness. To look how you're standing, what you're doing with your arms, just to be more present in your body. Stand on two legs, keep softening the body, have eye contact, speak from the present moment. Don't tell too many stories.

[Angel Donovan]: When you say don't tell too many stories, does that mean fibs and lies?

[Diana Richardson]: No I think, sometimes people talk a lot telling each other stories rather than kind of communicate out of the present.

[Angel Donovan]: So like, "This happened to me the other day or have you seen what's going on here?" and telling a story about that versus, "I'm feeling this...you know, this is where I am right now." That's my stab at what you mean.

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, yeah. Try as much, you know like to talk about yourselves in the moment or the situation but otherwise, I know that I've spent hours with men and men are just talking. I know women are known for talking but, I find men talk a lot, not all.

[Angel Donovan]: It's interesting.

[Diana Richardson]: But sometimes they just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. You go like, "Hello?" What helps is to ask a question about a person.

Okay, you might be asking about their past, you know, where they're from, their childhood. Try and talk in the moment more rather than just relate stories.

[Angel Donovan]: Be more real.

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah, be more real. That's right and you know, not to have an agenda. Women feel an agenda and the more slow you can go with a woman, the better. Sense of humor is really good and kissing is more important for a woman often than sex. So, it's really good to develop the art of kissing with...not with tongue but, with lips and that is just so amazing. You can sustain a lip kiss for hours and hours.

[Angel Donovan]: Yep, that's good advice. I'm seeing some good points there. I've come across the importance of kissing thing before in some of my relationships where I basically...like the girl said I stood out because of the kissing and they really, really felt that was a special whereas guys, we always think about the sex...

[Diana Richardson]: Yes, yes, yes.

[Angel Donovan]: ...and that dimension and we don't often think about the kissing.

[Diana Richardson]: Yeah for many women, kissing is more intimate than sex. They'll have sex with a guy before they kiss a guy necessarily. You know what I'm saying?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, if you want to...if they want to keep it cold, right? That's one way.

[Diana Richardson]: Anyway, so back to kissing. Lip kissing is definitely something. Okay, Angel. It's been great.

[Angel Donovan]: Yes, thank you so much for your time Diana.

[Diana Richardson]: You're welcome. All the best.