#127 Can You Date Safe? with Mike J. Domitrz
So, this of course relates to the whole college campus sexual assault and rape stories, and situations that have been covered in the news and media a lot recently. As a guy, this is probably something that has put you a little on edge. What is appropriate? What is not appropriate? These are the kinds of things, which can make you hesitate and make you feel uncomfortable in dating situations, which is not good for anyone.
You've probably received a lot of conflicting advice on how to get physical with women on dates, how to move to kiss or have sex with a girl, and the whole topic of sexual assault probably makes you a little uncomfortable. You don't have any concrete or clear rules to follow to ensure that you never step into that kind of territory – sexual assault territory – or indeed the sketch in where your girl is not having a great, happy, awesome time; where she feels totally comfortable and in for it.
The interview with today's guest was a great discussion. I'm not sure anyone has all the answers to this evolving topic, but I hope you get some clear takeaways from it. If you're left with any questions afterwards, please do comment on the episode by finding it at datingskillsreview.com/podcast and choosing the episode. You'll find the comments at the bottom. Just comment in there your questions or your opinions, or whatever and today's guest or I will get back to you.
So, Michael J. Domitrz, our guest today, he has a lot of experience in this topic. He has been working on it for over a decade and speaking about it everywhere with diverse sets of audiences, answering their questions, answering opinions, and asking their thoughts on this topic. So he's really covered a lot of ground in that time.
You'll find in today's episode that he's really able to discuss and tackle all of the biggest questions around it. I thoroughly enjoyed discussing today's tricky topic with Michael, and hope you do too, as well as taking some clear takeaways with you that will improve your dating life.
Specifically, in this episode you'll learn about:
- What is sexual assault? The difference between consent and arrogance (06:42)
- How to view sexual contact (07:59)
- What is The DATE SAFE Project? (08:56)
- The importance of discussing sexual assault in these current times (14:17)
- Drinking and not being of sound mind: normalizing sexual assault (17:03)
- The cultural "norms" and pressures regarding sexual assault (31:13)
- A worldwide perspective on sex education (35:00)
- Michael's approach to dating, physical intimacy, and sex (36:19)
- Open-minded sexual communities have a higher degree of consent (39:00)
- The psychology of initiating your move to communicate (41:17)
- The advantages of finding out what your partner likes or dislikes intimately: developing sexual confidence (44:16)
- What about the serendipity and the romance? (47:15)
- Our cultural is being taught that romance means control, instead of learning to communicate sexually (47:45)
- Sexual fantasies: communicating and establishing the boundaries of domination (51:21)
- The biggest issues to overcoming the fears of consent (53:19)
- Understanding body language for intent purposes only (54:48)
- Meeting for the first time / dating scenarios: Things to keep in mind (59:05)
- Facing each other's sexual inhibitions through communication (1:04:40)
- How to connect with Michael to learn about more about him and his work (1:07:40)
- Recommendations for quality advice and knowledge in the area of dating, sex, and relationships (1:08:08)
- Recommendations for guys starting from the beginning to improve their dating life (1:09:48)
Items Mentioned in this Episode include:
- The DATE SAFE Project: Michael's website and organization dedicated to fostering candid conversations about consent, bystander intervention, the truth about sexual assault, and supporting sexual assault survivors.
- The DATE SAFE Project Facebook page
- The DATE SAFE Project on Twitter
- Can I Kiss You?: A Thought-provoking Look at Relationships, Intimacy, and Sexual Assault (Michael J. Domitrz)
- Nicole Elissa: Michael recommends the work of this love coach.
- The Gifts of Imperfection (Renee Brown)
- Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less (Greg McKeown)
- The Alchemist (Paulo Coelho)
Michael recommends reading the following books:
Books, Courses and Training from Michael J. Domitrz
Full Text Transcript of the Interview
[Angel Donovan]: Mike, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[Mike Domitrz]: Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
[Angel Donovan]: It's awesome and you've got a new perspective to bring us. We're always looking for unique stuff and you're in your own little unique niche I think in this area. Obviously, you can tell us a bit more about. I thought we'd just dive straight into and talk about the main subject and kind of like the definition because with words, everyone has different ideas of what things mean. I find it's always good to start with a definition. So, what is sexual assault?
[Mike Domitrz]: That's a good question because around the world, there are different definitions to that. Generally, when we speak of sexual assault, we're talking about sexual contact without consent. A very simple concept actually that people try to make it sound complicated but, it's really not, sexual contact without consent.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so the "without consent" part, could you dig a bit deeper into that?
[Mike Domitrz]: Yes, that means for somebody to have consent... now once again, legally definitions vary over the world. What we're going to talk about is what we believe in as a whole. What we believe in as a whole is that consent is enthusiastically, mutually wanted and given and it's always between partners of legal age, sound mind. That means that I need to know before I do something with your body that you wanted. That's the key, not an arrogance of, "I know what you want. So, I'm just going to give it to you but, I'm going to check in because, I know what you want." That's arrogance. Huge, huge difference in arrogance and consent. Arrogance leads to people just making their moves because, they think they can read someone's body language and they go, "I got it. They want this right now. I'm going to give it to them." The problem is if they don't want it right then and you make that move, you've already engaged with sexually in a way that they didn't want to be touched. The only thing you can do at that point is apologize if it didn't go well. They deserved to have had a choice before it happened.
[Angel Donovan]: Great, great, so clarify also sexual contact. What could that be? Do you have some specific examples of the range of things that could be?
[Mike Domitrz]: A way to think of it this way is, "Are you doing it for sexual pleasure or degradation?" Then typically, that's more sexual contact. Is it more what would be considered a sexual area of the body, genitalia. Depending on gender, people will rate this differently. It not necessarily should be but, people will look at it differently. Like people in their mind think, "A woman's breast," but they don't necessarily think a man's breast but, you can definitely have that discussion. People will think the penis or the vulva or the vagina or the labia. It just depends with what somebody's definition. Somebody will think the rear end. It really depends on the circumstance. Could a kiss on the lips be sexual? Anybody with common sense could say, "Of course, of course making out can be very sexual," but kissing Mom good night is not sexual. There's not a purpose of sexual gratification or degradation there.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, that makes sense and what is the Date Safe project?
[Mike Domitrz]: We're an organization that works around the world and we're providing this education on consent, on how to intervene when you're at a party or at a bar and you see somebody using alcohol to try to facilitate a sexual assault. Now, people call that a drunk hookup or being taken advantage of. You see those scenes how to intervene and stop them. Also, how to support survivors, so that when this does happen, you can help your loved ones come forward. We work in all those realms and our mission is to create a culture of consent and respect throughout the world.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, great. When you say throughout the world, are you doing this in Asia or in Europe and is it a pretty big project. Could you give us some bit of an idea of the size of it, like number of people involved? I'm just curious about it.
[Mike Domitrz]: We have a small and within the organization itself. I'm the one who travels the world speaking and then, there's a team making a lot of the content happen as far as on line, social media, scheduling all the events, logistics. Our blogging, all of that, there's a team that helps make that happen. That 's really where we're doing a lot of reach world-wide is we do get people following us and using our materials around the world. Speaking-wise, most of our international work overseas is with the US military. We're still working often with American audiences. What's interesting about that is, let's say I'm in Italy or I'm in South Korea speaking with the US military, sometimes, their partners are there. Their spouses are there with them who are locals. We do get a very much mixed cultural experience in the programs because of spouses that are there from other cultures. We do a lot of work actually in Canada too. That's not overseas. That's outside the United States but, yes. I travel all over the world. Where ever they want us to go.
[Angel Donovan]: That's interesting. Actually since you brought up the military, I was just on a plane, sitting next to a girl on the plane who was in the military. She was just flying back from UK. She'd been stationed her for three years. She was telling me about a situation where they basically got reprimanded because, all people were breaking up. There were divorces going on and they kind of had basically a session where they were getting reprimanded and told that it had to stop and that anyone having affairs with others on the base or things like that should stop. Is that normal in the military? It just seems kind of different to me.
[Mike Domitrz]: No, it's very normal. Here's why it's normal in the military. They have a core value system they believe and that they live by. Depending on what service you're talking about, words like honor and integrity are in there. So, if somebody is cheating in relationship, that would lack typically integrity. Now, if your partner knows you are and you agree to that, that's a different situation. Obviously, you could argue whether that is integrity. Some people would say it still is. It's reaching the relationship but, that's why they have those conversations. The other reason they have those conversations and this is an extremely important one. If that stuff's happening, what is it doing to morale, which heavily impact preparedness for battle.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I agree on that.
[Mike Domitrz]: If you're working next to somebody and person A over here is having an affair with your partner, how does that effect you two working together?
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Mike Domitrz]: How does that effect? Lives on the line and you have to move quickly. Could that subconsciously impact the situation? Yeah and so, that's why they don't want that happening. They want that core value of integrity and honor being valued and lived.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it's really interesting because, I guess from the movies, you get the perspective that soldiers are well known for dating girls in any country they go to and so on. I think it comes from a lot of the older movies and so on but, it seemed like it was exactly the opposite>
[Mike Domitrz]: And that can happen, absolutely. We have military members around the world and in some parts of the world, they're not able to go into the community due the safety issues but, there are other parts of the world, they absolutely. They go out all the time and they can have a good time, just like they can here in the United States. They meet a local and they do have relationships, whether that be a one-night sexual relationship or whether that be a long-term relationship, just like they're here in the United States. That can be very similar. What they want to do is they want to make sure, "All right, we have our military members engaging in situations that can be very high-risk, that can have high-risk consequences. For instance, if a sexual assault were to take place, that obviously it is traumatic to the survivor. It can also, if it's a military member committing the crime, it impacts the military heavily as far as they lose a person. That person goes. I know some of you are listening going, "What does have to do with anything? The survivor should be the focus." Obviously in my line of work, that's what we're focused on. From the military viewpoint or corporate viewpoint, they're also looking at, "What could our members do that could result in us losing them? They could hurt our reputation." Let's say that a military member from Australia goes out and commits a sexual assault, it makes the news. Does that hurt the entire reputation of the Australian military? Yes, it does. All of that plays into why the militaries want to be doing high-level education on this. The key is, you're talking about, she felt like she was being reprimanded when she was at this program. That's not effective education, typically. What you want is really effective programming. Stuff that engages, gets people talking, gives them a new skill set, that makes them want to walk out and go, "Hey, I want this life. I want to use these skills sets. I want to succeed in this area."
[Angel Donovan]: Right, yeah it's very interesting. It's a look into a whole other world for me. Why talk about sexual assault now, specifically? How long have you been doing this?
[Mike Domitrz]: I've doing this since 1990. 91 is when I began and so for me, this isn't a now discussion. I've been doing it for 27years. It's interesting. People say, "Well, why is this at the center of news around the world now? Why suddenly are we talking about it more now?" It depends on what's happening in cases. There's been some improvements in our society that has helped this discussion come forward. The fact is though, in 1994 when one of the major magazine has Katy Kessner's face on the cover and it was really the first time a major national publication discussed sexual assault on college campuses and had a survivor on the front cover. That started the conversation then. I remember then saying, "Oh, this is just a hot topic right now but, Mike you're doing this work but, what's going happen in five years when nobody's talking about it?" Then, the 90s came along and cases were making the news and people go, "Well, what you're going to do when the 2000s?" Unfortunately, there does not seem to be in our life time a vision ahead in our lifetime where we're not going to need to talk about this and that's the sad part. It'd be great if I had no reason to have a job because this problem was solved tomorrow. That would be fantastic. We say in our line of work, "It'd be great if our businesses all had to collapse because the problem went away." There's no sign of that happening whatsoever, due to cultural norms and teachings.
[Angel Donovan]: Have you got any stats on this? Has it changed over time, since you've been around since the 90s?
[Mike Domitrz]: There are no stats.
[Angel Donovan]: There are no stats?
[Mike Domitrz]: There are no stats that show significant improvement.
[Angel Donovan]: Or change.
[Mike Domitrz]: Here's what has changed over time, there is a better understanding of issue. Without a doubt, I can prove that from comments my audience members will make that it's drastically improved. An understanding of the topic, they get that. Now as far as an awareness goes, applying it to their own personal lives, that's where we still have a major lag. For instance, I can be in front of an audience of 2000 people and say, "Can a drunk person..." Let's say it's college students or military members. "Can a drunk person consent? A person who's not of sound mind consent to a sexual act." The audience will yell no. They know the answer. No, they can not. They're not of sound mind, they're vulnerable. Many members in that same audience will pursue a drunk person that same night, on a Friday night when they go out. They know it's wrong. So, awareness has increased but, they don't realize that they're engaging in that behavior themselves. That's where the lag is still occurring and that's why we have so much education to do. When we get in a room and we can help people look in the mirror and go, "Oh man, I am part of this discussion. I need to look at my own behaviors," that's when you get behavioral change. Awareness is positive but, if we're going really have a result long-term that's going to change the world, be a paradigm shift, we need individual, personal behavior acknowledgment of, "I need to change here and here's the way I need to change."
[Angel Donovan]: I think the whole topic of drinking is interesting, of not being of sound mind because, I think everyone has that experience where you know, you went out. You got drunk and you hooked up with someone who you didn't necessarily want to wake up with the next day. I mean, a lot of people have had that experience. That can effect your confidence. That can effect just your self-esteem afterwards and it is really common. It's kind of considered normal as well. It's something to chuckle about at school. I remember it was when I was at college and so on.
[Mike Domitrz]: We can pause right there because, that's a great point that you're making that people almost chuckle about that, expect the person who wakes up that morning, doesn't know how they got there, realizes somebody has violated their body and they have no clue how this has happened.
[Angel Donovan]: Wait, wait, wait, wait because, I think this happens from both sides. That was half of my point. The way you're approaching this is... you tell me if this is right or wrong. Are we talking about men to women, primarily or are we talking about both scenarios or what are we primarily talking about here?
[Mike Domitrz]: All genders, all identities, all sexual orientations can be a perpetrated, can have it happen to them, can be the survivor. I do not... in our line of work, we're not speaking saying, "Hey, men don't do this," or "Women, here's this." We do not do that. We talk about, ÒLook, let's talk about how to live our lives the right way so that regardless of which viewpoint you're coming from, you make good choices," and that's really what's pivotally important there. So when I just said, somebody wakes up, they don't what happened, their body was violated, that could be any gender that could wake up and feel that. The fact is our society chuckles and you're right, they do at the notion of, "Oh, I woke and I didn't even know who this person was." What happens is they're normalizing somebody using alcohol to facilitate a sexual situation that somebody can not give consent to. Every now and then, people will say, "Well, if they're both drunk?" That is not normally the case. They're not both equally drunk. That is very, very rare and when you talk to people, they acknowledge that. They're like, "That's true." One usually knows what's happening. They're usually the one feeding the other one more drinks as the night goes on to increase their odds. That is way more common. What you have is you have somebody giving somebody the drinks intentionally to get them vulnerable. Once they're vulnerable, they're not of sound, they make their moves.
[Angel Donovan]: I don't know if that sounds like a lot of people have an agenda there. It hasn't been my experience in life.
[Mike Domitrz]: But here's a way to show they do, watch any movie, any movie discussing this issue. They will joke. The characters will joke about, "Get her drunk so you can get her in bed."
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Mike Domitrz]: It is an agenda. People will brag on a Friday night, "I'm going to go out tonight and find someone drunk so I can get laid." They literally are looking for a vulnerable person. They don't say out loud and they don't even understand maybe. That doesn't make it okay. They might not understand that what they're describing is sexual assault but, it is. Because it's so normal, we don't call it what it is and as long as we don't call what it is, it keeps being normalized as okay. Imagine if every time... I think you bring up a great point, Angel. Imagine if every single time that happened on a weekend, people said, "Hey, there was a sexual assault this weekend." Oh my gosh, we could not ignore how much this was happening all around us but instead people go, "Oh, there was a drunk hook up." Nobody pays attention to the harm or the risk or what took place. A big piece of this is we got to starting calling it what it is and acknowledge how messed up that is. Here's a great question, why do people us alcohol for sex? Why? You see, if we can talk about that...
[Angel Donovan]: Right, I'd say because, they all have inhibitions around sex.
[Mike Domitrz]: Yes! That's correct. What they're doing is they're using alcohol to get their partner in a situation where they lower their inhibitions. Now here's the more important part too, and lower their standards. My partner does not have sound mind to make good choices, lower standards. They have lower inhibitions, yes but, they also have lower standards. They're intentionally giving this person more drinks so that will happen. It's messed up. What we should be teaching our culture is, how do we teach people to have a sexual voice? How do we teach people to have sexual confidence so they don't need one ounce of alcohol to have sex with each other? That's the part nobody wants to discuss. If we were teaching, "Hey, here's what great sex looks like. You don't want alcohol because, alcohol numbs you. So, you don't want the alcohol. You want to feel everything. You want to be fully aware and have such sexual confidence about yourself that you love that. You enjoy that." If we were all pursuing that, and that's in the earlier when I said our mission is creating a culture of consent and respect because, that leads to mutually amazing sexual experiences.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, I agree with what you're saying about the alcohol. When you talk about it, it sounds like you know a lot people have this agenda of using the alcohol as a tool for the person to lower their inhibitions and standards as you said. I don't look at it like that. I see it that most people don't have that agenda that I speak to or I know but, I would say that is has an equally negative effect on their self-esteem because, they actually lower their own standards. What I've seen in my life is that a lot of these hook ups will happen when both parties are drunk and it might be just selection bias. All the people I've known in my life or I've hung out with, they haven't really tried to push drinks on anyone. They do go out with people. They drink a lot themselves and they kind of chuckle at themselves when they go home with the wrong person and the other bros make fun of them as well. I'm not sure about that there's a lot of people out there where this kind of agenda and...
[Mike Domitrz]: Well, let me back up. When I said agenda, remember what I said, that they might not even be aware of it. I'm not saying that anybody's...
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I agree with the jokes you brought up and the stuff like in the culture that's wrong and in a kind of subconscious way, some people might be thinking that, right? It's just, I haven't seen it in the behaviors like...
[Mike Domitrz]: You gave a great example of your friends. You gave a great example. They go out. They like to drink. This is their... it's a social lubricant, right? By what you're describing, they're using alcohol as a social lubricant. Why? Because, we haven't taught people how to actually be comfortable with sex without that lubricant.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Mike Domitrz]: That's the whole problem and so, you're not aware. When you're somebody with low self-esteem, let's say somebody has low self-esteem and they think, "Well, the only way I get laid is by going out and getting drunk." They don't even consciously think that maybe but, they've got it in their head because, they have low self-esteem. So, "I go out on Friday nights to get drunk"... I'm not saying me. The person who's in that situation. "I got out on Friday night to have a good time and when I get drunk, sometimes I end up getting laid." What do you think that does? That creates a circle that says, "Getting drunk helps get me laid."
[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.
[Mike Domitrz]: That is an agenda, whether they're conscious of it or not, "I'm going to use alcohol to have this happen." Now, that doesn't mean they have the agenda of, "I'm trying to do harm to another person." Whether you have the intention to do the harm does not stop the fact that you did the harm.
[Angel Donovan]: I think we may have like two different definitions here. Are you saying that they are less inhibited and more forward and kind of more aggressive which leads to them having sex with someone and in your terms, basically kind of potentially sexually assaulting someone just because they're not really aware of where their minds at. Because what I understood earlier was that you thought, they were kind of pushing the drinks on the other person, encouraging the other person to drink. So, let's say the girl in the situation here, the guys out and he drinks quite a bit but, he's actually kind of encouraging the girl to drink more than him because, he thinks he's going tog get laid that way.
[Mike Domitrz]: Both, they're both true scenarios. In other words, if one is pushing drinks on the other, obviously anybody with common sense can say, "That's messed up."
[Angel Donovan]: Right.
[Mike Domitrz]: Right? I mean, most people agree on that. That's messed up. People don't disagree with that but, ironically people who say that's messed up, they don't even recognize themselves doing it in their own relationships. I can be in front of an audience that's married and they're like, "We're married. Why do we need to be here?" I go, "All right, have you ever given your partner one more drink because, you thought it would help them get horny." "Yes, I have." "Okay well then, you just pushed a drink on to get sex." They're like, "Oh man, that's true. I did, " if they're honest. If theyÕre defensive, they'll be like, "No I didn't, no I didn't. I just did it to help them get loosened up." "Why do they need to get loosened up?"
[Angel Donovan]: That's pretty fun.
[Mike Domitrz]: Because... right, it's pretty blatant right? You don't think that sex would have happened without it. So, you used alcohol but, they don't believe they're doing it for that. See, that's what I'm saying. They're not even aware they're doing that. There's the one who's aware of it. Who says, "I'm going to go out and get someone drunk and I'm going to push all these drinks. Then, there's a whole chunk of our society that's not even aware they're doing it. They're not even aware or subconsciously, they're going out to get drunk and that's their cycle of getting laid. They're not having these conversations. I'm glad you're asking all these different scenarios because, there's so much deep discussion here of what people have been taught as a normal. So, "I'm sexually assaulting because, I just went out to get drunk. They got drunk. That's not rape, right?" Because the moment it could possibly be, people become highly defensive because, how do you say, "I'm a rapist," versus saying, "Why didn't you have sex with the person sober? Why didn't you have sex with the person after they only had one drink and they were very much of sound mind? Why it is always when you're both drunk?" Having these conversations becomes very powerful.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I agree with you and like I mentioned, I don't drink alcohol. I've quit two years ago and I haven't been much of a drinker myself and when we teach guys, we always... one of the things we tell them to do is quit alcohol because, their conversation skills go out the window when they drink too much and it doesn't help the situation. I'm not for drinking in any way.
[Mike Domitrz]: I want to be fair but, I do want to be fair. I'm not against people going out and having a good time and drinking alcohol. We're not saying don't drink alcohol. We're saying that sex is a mutual relationship. Mutual, whether it's one night or whether you've been together 20 years. For something to be mutual, somebody needs to be of sound mind to make a legal choice. By the way, that's true. Take it out of sex, that's true of all... if you're buying something of significance. For instance, in the United States, if you know somebody is in a vulnerable state of mind and you sell them something, in most of the United States, that's not a sale because, you took advantage of the buyer. So, that's not allowed and that's on material items, not the human body. What we're saying is, "Hey, why we transform our culture so that... you know, if you want to go out and drink, that's fine but, have sex before you're drunk, right? Have sex before you're not of sound mind." People will say all the time, "Hey, are you going to get drunk tonight?" to their partner. "You know what? I think I might. I think I'm going to have quite a few tonight?" "All right, why don't we have sex now?" If you're in a mature, healthy sexual relationship and you're both in the mood, your partner will be like, "All right, you're right. You know what? Let's do it now when I'm in the mood and we're here and let's have a blast."
[Angel Donovan]: The truth is sex is always better without alcohol anyway, always.
[Mike Domitrz]: Yes, and what you just said Angel is so critical and I know you said you teach that too. That the sex is so much better without alcohol but, our culture around the world is not having that conversation and they believe the opposite. They believe, "With a few drinks, I'm better in bed," because there's so many inhibitions. There's so much judgment, depending on your gender, of if you choose to be sexual. For instance, those who identify as women, they can be degraded for being sexual. They can also be degraded for not being sexual enough. It's like a lose/lose. Now, our culture says, "Well, use alcohol. That'll help you become yourself more." I mean, it's just a disaster.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it's just to get over inhibitions from both sides of the party and if you look at that's what the decision-making process is for people today on both sides for girls and guys, they're like, "I'm going to get drunk to get over my inhibitions because, I get laid more often when I do that." As you said, that's kind of the discourse. I remember when I was at college, that was the discourse. Everyone would get drunk and they'd hook up more often and that was just the way. So, it's kind of this reward process. You get whatever you reward.
[Mike Domitrz]: There's a catch to it though and that is, there's a difference in gender evaluation of this. It can be. It's not always based on gender but, that is men are more likely to think... for instance, in a heterosexual relationship that, "Okay, it was a mistake. Big deal." But women who let's say that you've... somebody's been... and this is a little graphic but, somebody's penetrated you. Somebody's been inside you. Somebody's touched your most vulnerable areas. There's a different experience there. Now, let me be very consistent here. If that happens to a male, he can feel the same way but, our culture's taught men, "You should want that even when you're not in the mood for it." We've taught women, "It's not okay to be sexual." It's a disaster. So what happens is, people think, "Oh, it was just a mistake. So, I had sex with her. We woke up the next morning. We were both drunk. We didn't know what we were doing." She might be waking up realizing, "Somebody just raped me. I do not know how this happened. Somebody was inside me. Somebody's touched me. Somebody's..." Those are two different paradigms. The one you're going to hear about is the guy going, "Oh, I got drunk," and he's going to talk about that. The survivor may never tell another human being what happened. So, we're only hearing one side of the story when it goes bad and that's very common. So, it's get's written off, ÒOh, it's just a reward game. Right? Go out and get drunk and get laid," but we're not hearing the other side. By the way, I want to stress, that survivor could be any gender that's been touched, that's going to wake up and realizes this and people will go, "Well, wait a second." Let's say that alcohol is on both side of the equation, "How do you know who committed the sexual assault or how could anybody be responsible?" There's an easy way to explain that. People go... compare it to drunk driving. A drunk driver gets held responsible for drinking and then, killing someone. How come If you have sex when you're drunk, you're not held responsible? Here's the difference, which person did the harm? A drunk driver did harm while drunk and so, they're being held responsible for the harm. If you are drunk and somebody does something sexual to your body that you were not able to consent to, they're doing the harm. Therefore, they're responsible, not the person the harm was done on to.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it's just kind of tricky where you have two people and they're both taking part in the act. When you have a drunk driving incident, the guy drives into someone and it's pretty obvious, he drives into someone who's not drunk or...
[Mike Domitrz]: Yeah, you have a double the mess. I'm agreeing with you. If you have two people who are equally drunk and not of sound mind engaging in a sexual situation, you have a mess. You a bit of a disaster. It's why we teach people how to intervene. We teach people, when you see that scene at a party, at a bar, you're with friends, you see that starting, blow that scene up, like intervene. Stop that. That's a disaster waiting to happen and we don't want a disaster. We don't want it to end in a sexual assault, sexual violence. So, intervene because, I agree with you. There's no win/win to that scene Right? So, let's intervene and stop it from happening.
[Angel Donovan]: I guess the other part I was just thinking about when you were talking about that is our culture. When you talk about penetrating, you know the way we look at things is we've taught guys that it doesn't really matter if they slept with the wrong girl or you know, they had one of these sex sessions and they wake up and they didn't feel so good about it. They feel bad but, they're told to just kind of like get over it. It's just funny. It's not a big deal, right? Like in the same light, it's often been fine for guys to sleep around but, not so much for women but, you know our culture puts a lot more pressure on women to make it a bad thing if the situation has happened. I think it's also... like obviously, it's also different for women but, it's also... like there's different cultural pressure on a woman to make it into a bad scenario, also. What is your take on that?
[Mike Domitrz]: I would say that there's not enough support to help survivors come forward after something bad has happened. I don't think there's a lot of pressure for a person to "make it bad after the scene."
[Angel Donovan]: No?
[Mike Domitrz]: There's a big difference. Let's say there's no alcohol involved. Let's just say there's no alcohol involved at all and you both agree to it the night before. You want it and you wake up the next day and you're, "Oh, why did I do that?" That's regret. Nobody... that's not sexual assault. That's regret and that can happen. You can regret a choice you made. What will happen though in society is they'll go, "Well, I'm going to sleep with someone. They're going to wake up the next morning and regret it and call it rape." First of all, if that's concern, who are you sleeping with? Why would you sleep with somebody that that's your fear factor? Like why would you do that? That just doesn't even make sense. Two, if that's why you keep thinking that somebody's going to regret having sex with me, why don't you really make sure they want to have sex with you. Like, that's a simple solution. Make sure they're sober. Make sure... but, what happens is our society shows the example of that one sexual assault case and everybody goes, "See, that's how it works. A woman changes her mind and then, says it was rape and that's what's happening all over the place." No, that's not what's happening all over the place, at all. At all but, you just need one case like that for the world to run with and over exaggerate issues like false report, regret and so no, that's not what's typically happening. What we need to do is to teach everybody that the difference between regret and sexual assault. Now, if I wake up the next morning and I was not of sound mind and I don't know how I got here, that's not. Somebody might say, "Well, I would regret that." Maybe they would have that feeling as a survivor but, they're also recognizing they were sexually assaulted. So that's not changing their mind the next morning. That's literally waking up and going, "Oh my god. What has happened to me? I've been sexually assaulted." That's not changing the mind. That's having a realization of what took place.
[Angel Donovan]: I think it's a really, really tricky area which is you know one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show. Just word assault, it just makes it sound like an attack and I think there's a danger of over using for situations which are unfortunate and not healthy. I definitely agree with that but, I don't think they have the kind of intent behind them. I think to a certain extent you agree with that. You think the culture's wrong. That we kind of have these standards of thinking, being forceful. "Ending up in these situation is okay. It's not a big deal. It's just funny." I put it down mostly to low self-esteem and sexual inhibition and sexual immaturity, not being able to deal with these things as you say with a sound mind and to avoid all of these situations, to have perspective on the longer term. Like, if it's just the next day or the next week to how you may feel afterwards but, I think it's... the problem is that's part of growing up. We're not like in the education system for sexual education. It's a tricky subject to teach because, we've put a lot emotions around it and the media continued to lay the emotions on people and now, there's porn over the internet. You know, there's all sorts like emotional connotations and stuff.
[Mike Domitrz]: I mean; we can go there. The education around the world is horrific.
[Angel Donovan]: Right.
[Mike Domitrz]: Sex education around the world, here's what it is. You typically get either what not to do, abstinence or what... and by the way, that's not a bad option. That can be a wonderful option but, if you only learn that, you have no skill set for when you do make the choice. You could say, "I'm going to wait until marriage." Well, what happens when you get married if you have no skill set? That's not healthy. Or you get the one over here that says, "Here's what not to get," which is talking about disease, infection, pregnancy and so, they tend to be around condom, birth control, that discussion. What's interesting about that is you're teaching what not to do, what not to get and you're not teaching what to actually do. You're not actually giving them... or, here's how to put on a condom but, how do you actually talk to your partner about what they like sexually? How do you find that out for yourself? What are you comfortable talking about with your voice? See, that's consent. Consent is learning my voice, having a choice, being part of that exploration that's mutual and it's wanted and it's enthusiastic. Consent is like the greatest sex ever and it should be the only way sex happens obviously is with consent but, when you really understand consent, that mutually wanted, enthusiastically given, that's what lead to incredible sex.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, absolutely. Let's move on with some of practical stuff because, that'll make it clearer to the people listening what you're talking about in terms of creating the consent and all the good stuff that goes with that. How would you describe your approach? Like, you're just doing kind of a dating scenario, kissing, physical intimacy, sex.
[Mike Domitrz]: It's passionate because, what's neat about when you use your words, it's so much more intimate than assumptions and arrogance. A lot of people out there think they can read body language, right? Like, "Oh, I can read body language." Well, what they're doing is they're reading their own urges and wants, hoping the other one feels the same. That's what they're really doing. They're not reading body because, that same look depends on how you are perceiving your feelings in the moment. They're looking at you and you could think, "Oh, they want me." Now, if you'd have no connection, they're looking at you and you think, "Oh, they're annoying." I mean, it's the exact same look depending on where you're coming from. Your own arrogance and your ego gets in the way of that so, talk. Ask them. "Hey, you know what? I'm feeling a really strong connection tonight. Are you feeling that connection? Are you having fun with it?" Look them right in the eyes, "May I kiss you right now?" Now, you do it like that, that's very romantic. It's very passionate. Now, somebody out there is going, "I would hate being asked." No, typically if they're saying that, they're picturing this, "May I kiss you right now?" Like, you know some obnoxious, annoying voice versus a right personal conversation. Looking somebody in the eyes and saying, "May I kiss you?" Is it possible that you could ask and somebody could say, "Geez, I don't like being asked"? Yes, because they've taught you're not supposed to use your voice. It's not okay for them to say yes. That tells you how messed up things are. You learn as a couple. You learn as a partnership of, "No, I want to hear you say yes. I love that."
[Angel Donovan]: So, you're saying basically, every step in physical intimacy should be vocal.
[Mike Domitrz]: Or an exploration of the steps before you engage in them. So, it doesn't mean I go, "Can I touch your left? Can I touch your right?" That's the stereotype people have as it's happening. How about instead you go, "What would love for me to do for you in bed tonight?" That's a whole different conversation. Very consensual, right? You're listening. They get to say what they like, what they don't like. Now, somebody listening right now is going, "Geez, I could have that conversation." Then, you want to look in the mirror and go, "Why not? What confidence I am I missing or what sexual knowledge am I missing that I can't own the situation?" Because that's all you're doing, you're owning the situation.
[Angel Donovan]: Right.
[Mike Domitrz]: "What would you love?" and then, listening. Not trying to change their mind, listening and when we teach this to audiences and keep in mind, our audiences can have people... when we're in the military, people that are 18 to 65 and you teach, "What would you love for me to do in bed for you tonight?" I can't tell you how many people tell us afterwards, "Why didn't I learn that simple skills, that simple question 30 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago? It's changed my relationship," because you get rid of the arrogance and the assumptions and then, we get to do what each other actually wants. It's so much more fun.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, so as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about it, I talk to everyone about dating, sex in all sorts of communities. So, the porn stars, the polyamorists, the swingers and these guys have interesting points in some respects, especially polyamorous, I would say because, they have very complex relationships. Also the BDSM world actually because, they're kind of pushing into edgy things. They're very mature and very healthy and very communicative and they would follow all of this advice really well. If you're looking for a place where it's done well, it's typically in those communities.
[Mike Domitrz]: No, you're absolutely correct. The BDSM community's understanding of consent is at a much higher level and actually understanding then general society. It's not even a close call. It's very well-understood what everybody's comfortable with, what they're not comfortable with, what this means and it is a much more... and I'm not saying healthy because, people will put judgements on that but, it is a much more complete understanding of consent.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah absolutely and normally, it leads to more satisfactory outcomes, more healthy outcomes because, everyone's got their own thing and they get what they want out of it. It just ensures that both people are getting what they want. So, those guys are very mature and the people in those communities on the whole are mature and they're ready for that. I think the problem with applying these rules to the rest of society is that everyone is, I don't know how else to say it but, sexually immature.
[Mike Domitrz]: That's the exact words I use actually, Angel. It's literally the exact language. I'm agreeing with you, which is why education must be transformed. It's why we do what we do because of what you just said. We agree 100% and I'm a big believer in... look, if you want to change culture, you're much better educating everybody on proper sexual knowledge, confidence, everything. That's how you reduce the crime. We want all the convictions we can get for survivors to have closure, for justice to prevail. If we want to reduce the crime though, we need education. We need to shift the way we talk about sex and consent, all of this.
[Angel Donovan]: Great stuff, right, right, good. Yeah, I think we do. Sometimes, some of the words maybe get in the way. The other concern I have is, if I take a guy... because, we're normally teaching guys and they're listening to this podcast. There are girls listening to this podcast too but, it's primary guys. If I take a guy... typically most of the guys listening to this, they're not super confident about this area of their life and that's why they're listening, to get more confidence, to learn more so that they will become confident soon. The first thing is, it adds pressure when they have to say something rather than just make the move. It's kind of like adding an additional step. The second I would say is that like the girl in this situation, she's not used to it either and so, it often creates... you know, she doesn't know how to respond to some of these things. For example, if you take the one about sex. Like, "What type of sex would you like tonight?" Now, I know that most really young girls arenÕt... unless she is really mature, she's not going to know. She's going to be really experienced. If you're lucky, she's kind of outspoken and she'll just say something but, I think most girls would not know what to say and it would basically create more social pressure for her and she'll just feel more uncomfortable and more awkward and it would create an awkward situation.
[Mike Domitrz]: I love the question. So, I'm going to go with both because, we discuss this all the time. Let's go to the first one, it adds an extra step to ask. Here's the irony, it actually cuts out tons of stuff. Asking saves you so much time. An easy way to explain it, that same guy who's afraid to ask, how long will he sit there before he makes a move? We all know the answer, forever. He will wait until the exact moment he thinks and he's trying to figure that out and he is playing a mind game with himself trying to figure that out. Everybody agrees with that. Yes, you do. You play a mind game. "Is this the moment? Is this the moment? Is this the moment?" If he had asked an hour before, he could be enjoying the intimacy right now. It cuts out a ton of steps. I can sit there and wait an hour for the right moment or I can look you in the eyes and say, "I feel this amazing connection. May I kiss you right now?" It cuts out the steps.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, he's still waiting for the right moment to ask that.
[Mike Domitrz]: But, hereÕs the difference, once he thinks there's a connection, once he thinks it, he can ask.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Mike Domitrz]: If he's waiting for the right moment to make his move, that's different because, people will sit there and go, "All right, I think there's a connection but, is this the right moment? Is this the right moment? Is this the right moment?" With the asking the kiss, it's, "I think there's a connection. I can ask."
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I don't think the guys are going to see it any different. They're going to see asking or making a move is the same from their point of view. They still have to take that risk.
[Mike Domitrz]: Yeah, here's why it's not. I'll explain why it's not, though. It's tremendously different. You make a move and keep in mind that I'm working with all genders. You make a move on someone and they don't want it, we all know how awkward that moment is. It's horrible and people will say that. Like, "Oh, that can ruin a night right there." Okay, you ask and they don't want it, they say no. They say no and then, you respond with and this is the critical part, how you respond to that. You don't get mad. You don't pout. You be confident and you say, "You know what? Then, I'm glad I asked. The last thing I want to do is make you feel uncomfortable," and then, they might even say, "Well, I would love to kiss you maybe later tonight. I'm just not there right now." You're building this relationship. It's so much easier. On the second part, you asked about, "What if the partner doesn't know what they like?" That's when you're going to learn. When you just make a move and you assume what they like or you assume what they want, it's a guessing game. You could be so wrong. If you ask, "What would you love for me to do for you in bed tonight," and they don't know and by the way, that's very possible because, our culture doesn't teach what it should teach on this topic. They say, "Well, I don't know what I like. ÒThen you get to say, "All right, what don't you like?" Now, there people tend to have an answer. "Well, I don't really like this," or "I don't really like that." "Okay, great. Would you love if we tried this together?" and you get to explore with each other. By the way, this is the epitome of sexual confidence. It's the epitome of it and when you talk to people who have had these conversations where it was the first time a partner did that. Like said, "May I kiss you?" or a partner said, "What would you love for me to do in bed for you tonight?" the partner who was asked the question will tell you, ÒOH my gosh. It was so sexy," because they weren't afraid of the answer. It was total confidence. Like, "If I said no, I didn't fear their reaction but, if I said yes, I just felt like with this person, I'm going to be able to be myself, be vulnerable." It takes a true level of self-understanding that I can ask these questions and not fear the answer. It's the ultimate confidence and as you know Angel, people love sexual confidence.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, they do. I agree with everything you're saying and it all works. For the guys at home, you can take this approach and it will work. I just think that for people starting out, they lack the conversation experience and kind of flexibility and ability to lead.
[Mike Domitrz]: Which is why they need to slow down and that's good to know. I mean, how many people out there, if they were really honest with themselves in the mirror and say, "Geez, I'm not comfortable having these conversations." Then, why are you engaging in sex with that person who you... high risk activity with somebody you can't have the conversations with. Don't feel guilty about that. Step back and say, "What do I need to do for myself to be able to have these conversations." So for anybody listening right now going, "Geez, I don't know if I could have that conversation," I don't want you to feel guilty that you can't have that conversation. I want you to gain the knowledge and the skill sets so you can have that conversation because, it's going to make this whole thing ten times easier for you when you can have these conversations. So, start with small steps.
[Angel Donovan]: And they've also got to learn how to make that conversation easy for the other person because, that's the bit I'm worried about in particular for the guys.
[Mike Domitrz]: Right so, learn that right? So, the partner says... remember what I gave. I gave them the skill set for that. You ask, "May I kiss you?" and the person... maybe somebody says, "Oh geez, I'm not used to being asked." Say, "I understand you might not be used to that but, I'm always going to give you a choice. I only want to do this if you want it" That's sexy. That's positive. Now, if you have a sexually immature partner who's like, "Well, I'm uncomfortable with this." That's good to know because, then you can go, "All right, well then we need to slow down because, the last thing I want to do is engage in sexual activity with somebody who can't even talk about the sexual activity. That's not going to be good for me either. So, this is a good slow down."
[Angel Donovan]: So, another kind of some of the objections I think people will come up with are about, "What about the serendipity? What about the romance?" because, girls and movies are always talking about how they love serendipity. How they love romance. It's always demonstrated in the movies; the guy just makes his move right? That's also an aspect of what's teaching us.
[Mike Domitrz]: Yes, well that's the whole problem. We're being taught romance and it's really about control. It's not about romance. It's about control. It's a disaster on all fronts because, what happens is, one partner's getting their, "I want to be swept off my feet. I don't want to say to anything. I don't want to do anything." All right, let's just pause right there. Look at how selfish that is. We are teaching a culture of, "I don't want to have to do anything to be responsible. I want to just sit there." That's not mutual engagement. That's putting all the pressure on one person. Who actually wants that? Number two, do those scenes really work like they work in the movies and everybody will tell, "No, of course not. We know that." You don't walk into a room and music suddenly kicks in out of nowhere, candle lights suddenly turn on. That's not how it works. We're in a real world. Part of the problem is, if you are comparing your sex life to film, media industry, that's a disaster in and of itself. If you're comparing it to porn, you've got an even, maybe bigger issue because... you said, you interviewed porn performers. They're the first to admit that what they do on film is typically not what they do at home.
[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely.
[Mike Domitrz]: Because, what they want at home is pleasure. They want this incredible pleasure or connection and what they do on film is for visual and audio fantasy. It's a performance. The problem is, we have people watching performances, whether it be in movies or porn or the internet and they think that's reality. That's a danger. One of the things we need to do is help people understand that's not realistic. Let's talk about how you have great sex realistically and that ends up being way more sexy and romantic.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I agree. It can be more really romantic and you've given a few examples of how to approach that, how to say things where it will make it romantic. I do think it takes a confidence and sexual confidence to build it up. So, it's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario.
[Mike Domitrz]: Well, I say this, you can gain confidence without experience and we all know that. There's a catch to that. Some people think, "Well, you need to do to gain confidence." No, you need to learn to gain confidence, actually. How does our military... and the military's a great example? Most militaries, this is how they work. They train somebody in a certain action they need to take, life-or-death situation, 1000, 2000, 5000 times. they give them education. They're not really going out there and executing the situation that could kill someone but, they're getting so much training on it, that it becomes natural. That when they are in the real situation, they can act naturally but, we don't do that with sexual knowledge. So, if you're listening going, "How do I gain confidence if I haven't had experience," read, learn, research.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, talk as well but yeah, they have to have discussions like with guys, with girls.
[Mike Domitrz]: And really evaluate who you're learning from. I'm sure you're aware of this too, Angel. All the people that say, "Well, my friends say..." Well, are your friends in great sexual situations. Maybe they're not the ones to be learning from if they're not. "My buddy gets laid all the time." That doesn't mean he's having great sex. He could be horrible in bed and getting laid all the time. So, you need to really listen to all perspectives.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, you want to be looking to guys in relationships where you can see that they girl's really into him, there's lots of physical touching and so on. When they're together, you can see that they've got a physical connection and things are going well between them.
[Mike Domitrz]: And that's what you do, you learn, right? I mean, think of it financially. If you were going to try to say, "How do I become wealthy?" you don't study the people who all went bankrupt. You study the people who have figured out how to become wealthy because, if you studied bankruptcy, you learn how to become bankrupt. If you study wealth, you learn how to become wealthy. You're more likely to. Same thing sexually, what are your studying? The people who fail or the people who have really healthy, mutually wonderful situations. Find them, learn what they did and learn so much. By the way, people love when you really are vulnerable and say, "I'd like to learn about this." It's amazing how people love to open up and share.
[Angel Donovan]: Great. Another thing that you know actually that's been more of a topic the last few years is women's fantasies. It's been known for quite a long time that women have a lot of different fantasies and this can include rape fantasies in some situations. If you look at Nancy Friday's work, one of her books, which I imagine you're probably aware of. Then, we had the whole 50 Shades Grey thing. A lot of it's about domination leading from the guy's perspective. So, how do you talk about that area where you know, women do respond, obviously in the right situation well to dominance and leading but, when you have to... if you're going to say, "I'm going to ask before I go forward with each step," you could see how that would kind of take away from the domination and the leading aspect of it.
[Mike Domitrz]: Well, if somebody's into domination, this goes back to the BDSM community and as you acknowledged earlier, they have some of the most consensual conversation imaginable.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.
[Mike Domitrz]: So, if you think your partner likes to be lead, find out. Ask, "Hey, do you love when somebody's very dominate? Do you like? What does that mean to you," because for a lot of different people, that means a lot of different things. So, you can get really stupid in your own arrogance and think, "Oh, I'm just going to take control here," and that's not what they mean by somebody who controls. They want somebody who leads but, doesn't control. That's different than somebody who controls everything, very different. So, what does the BDSM community do? They say, "Hey, when we go into a dominant situation or a submissive situation, we totally discuss our role in this situation, what we're comfortable with, what we're not." If you're going to be in a relationship where you think you want to try dominance, you better be able to have all those conversations. If somebody goes, "Well, I'm not comfortable having this conversation," then one, you're cheating your partner and yourself because now, we're supposed to guess what you want or you're supposed to guess what they want. It's a nightmare for everybody. What you need to do is discuss these things and for anybody listening going, "Once again, I can discuss these things," then maybe you're not ready to participate in these things until you can. Slow down.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, okay, great. What do you see the biggest issues to overcome? Like, we've talked a bit about sexual inhibition and the cultural aspects of this and basically, what's going to be surrounding potentially the guys who are listening to this? What is it in their lives that you think they're going to have to overcome to take this on board?
[Mike Domitrz]: Two aspects. One, that every time they engage in a sexual act with another partner, they absolutely want it to be mutually amazing.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, so that's the attitude, the intent?
[Mike Domitrz]: That's the attitude and the intent because, if you don't have that, if it's about me getting laid, arrogance is about to kick in real quick and you could make some very dangerous choices based on that. Versus, "I want this to be mutual. How will I know that it's going to be mutual? Well, that means we have to talk. We've got to communication." Number two, instead of being afraid of my words, look forward to my words, to the conversation, to learning what they like, what they don't like. If they don't know what they like or don't like then, look forward to the exploration with them of figuring that out by talking about the want to try, what they don't want to try. That's where it becomes a much more intimate, a much deeper level sexual relationship, intimate relationships or just plain loving relationships. That's the key. Go in thinking, "I want this to be mutually amazing." Mutually amazing which means, "This needs to be mutual experience throughout.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, yeah great. So, the body language aspect, you say it's difficult to interpret body language but, I do think that's a skill that can be learned and becomes kind of blindly obvious if someone's interested or not when you've learned how body language works.
[Mike Domitrz]: What we teach about body language is that you watch it. You do try to read it. We don't deny that. Yes, do that but, confirm with words. Body language will give you an intent maybe if you get it right but, it doesn't give you the details and that's the problem.
[Angel Donovan]: Would it be okay to say something like, "You look like you want to be kissed right now."
[Mike Domitrz]: And then just say, "May I?" Yeah.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, you really like the question part, right?
[Mike Domitrz]: I do, here's why. What men often forget is how that kind feel intimidating to make a statement. Now, your partner feels they owe you a kiss. That's a whole different ballgame and because of what our culture teaches women (in the case you're giving a heterosexual example) can feel they owe it because, they're always supposed to keep their partner happy. I'm not saying that's healthy but, that's what a culture can teach. When you say, "Hey, you look like you need a kiss right now," and no question, it can get a very uncomfortable, intimidating grounds for a partner versus, "You look like you would love to be kissed right now. May I kiss you?" Just add it on and let them own it because, when you let your partner own it and say, "Yes," first of all, empowering for them. For you too hear though to hear yes is sexy. I mean, anybody will tell you, if you're in the mood and your partner says yes, you're in heaven. This is awesome.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. I've got to be honest with you. I am going to go away after this call and I'm going to talk with all the girls I know and I'm going to kind of shift through whether they like the question and leading because...
[Mike Domitrz]: Here's something to keep in mind though Angel...
[Angel Donovan]: Okay.
[Mike Domitrz]: They've never been taught to have that voice. Without being in the situation, you're going to get a lot of kick back because, they've never been in the situation and it changes once they've been in the situation. I will tell you that if I walk up to most people on the street and I say to women, "Would you like to be asked," a big chunk will go, "No way." They show up at my show. We have them in the audience. We role play an asking scene. "Would you like to be asked?" Suddenly 90%, I'm not exaggerating, walk out filling out a form saying... you know, a survey, "I am looking forward to asking or being asked." They need the skill set. So, without the skill set, they think that asking is going to ruin the moment because, they've never been given those choices.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, so you're saying it's like a comfort zone.
[Mike Domitrz]: It is. It is. One of the big things we need out there is, "Hey, how would you like to be asked," is a really good question. After to the call, if you're going to go talk to them and go, "Hey, if someone were to ask you for sex, how would you want to be asked? If someone were to ask you for a kiss, how would you like to be asked?" That's a powerful question and if they go, "Geez, I don't even know." "Okay, well think about it. Let me know how you like it." If they go, "I wouldn't want to be asked," then ask them, "Isn't that a little unfair on the partner. They got to always read your mind," and you get into some really great conversations.
[Angel Donovan]: That sounds good. Obviously, you've had a lot of experience with this. I mean, it's really impressive if you have women turning around and taking that on board like that. I've seen similar situations where people have flipped in a seminar or somewhere and they've really taken the information on board and it's quite impressive.
[Mike Domitrz]: Well, what's neat about it is, what we find in our numbers is there's no difference between gender. In other words, as many men are walking out saying the same thing as women are because when you learn the skill set, you realize, "I want this. I actually want." Like you said, sexual confidence. If you have real sexual confidence based on knowledge, what happens if people flip in a one-hour program? One word, knowledge. They gain their confidence. They walked out realizing, "I now have a knowledge set I can use. That gives me confidence," and that's what we mean by people getting knowledge. Your listeners are listening, why? Because they want to gain knowledge and the more they gain that knowledge, the more confident they get. Some of them are listening today and a few of them at least probably are going, "I'm to to try this," because they have confidence based on the knowledge.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, okay. Talking with the guys to get away with some practical takeaways, you know exactly how and you've given us some examples but, I wanted to kind of walk step-by-step through a typical situation so that they've got some things to walk away with. If they were meeting a girl for the first time and they're interested in here. They're attracted to her, what should they keep in mind in that scenario. Are there typical things that you'd think they'd want to say in order to make sure that they go on a date with her, they get her number or anything like that.
[Mike Domitrz]: Just have fun. Be yourself and really be willing to learn about the person. I mean, everybody will tell you that. Listen over talking because, that's how you learn and that's how you get to the vibe of something and it's just the good old school. That's how to do it. I get people that ask me all the time, "Well, how you ask somebody out for a date?" You ask them. That's really... this is not that complicated. Just ask and if you're that nervous, start with a coffee or start with a whatever but, just put your words on the line. The worst thing that can happen is they say no. Worst case and unless you're totally disrespectful or degrading in how you ask, then they might slap you something but, if you're respectful and you're being fun and playful, the worst thing they're going to do is say, "No thanks." Go, "Okay, gave it a shot." That is so much better, "I gave it a shot in life," than always going, "Geez, I wish I could ask that person or I wish that..." Go up and ask. Take the risk. Take the risk because, you want the reward. Take the risk.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, great. So now, they're on the date. They took the risk. They got the reward. They're on the date. What sort of things should they keep in mind there?
[Mike Domitrz]: The things to keep in mind is that start it being a mutual experience before the date. It sets a really cool stage for both of you. What I mean by that is, a lot of people, "I'm going to surprise them with this amazing date." You don't know what they like. You could take them to the most glamorous situation. That's not who they are and it just doesn't connect at all. So, don't try to impress. That's the biggest mistake I see people making. When they start to impress, they're not themselves. They're putting on a show. If they are getting attracted to you, it's to the show because, that's what you've put on, not to who you are. The key is find out before the date what do they like. "Oh, you'd like to go out. Great, where do you like to go? What do you like? What do you like to do? Are you a music person, a movie person, do you like bowling? I mean, throw things out there they wouldn't normally hear to have a little fun with and let them choose. If they're like, "Oh my gosh, I would love to go bowling with you," you two are going to have so much fun on that date and most people wouldn't have ever thought of that.
[Angel Donovan]: Right so, you're saying look for common interests.
[Mike Domitrz]: Yeah, here's what's great about it. If you establish before the date, "I want to set this up to be an awesome night for you," you're setting up... which is true, hopefully. You're not doing it as gamesmanship. That you want them to have a wonderful experience and that's important to you. That shows a mutual respect and also, do this. You don't do something you don't want to do because now, you're not respecting yourself. If they're like, "Bowling," and you're not a bowling person, that you would hate that night, "Okay, what else would you love."
[Angel Donovan]: Right.
[Mike Domitrz]: You don't have to take the thing they say just to keep them happy. That's going to set up a disaster also. Be true to yourself, be true to them, discover. Now you're on the date, keep the discovery. Keep learning. Keep learning.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that's very important what you just said, mutually satisfactory because, I think a lot of guys also go the other extreme and as you say and they're just trying to satisfy the woman. They'll go bowling even though they hate bowling, which is never going to go anywhere good. Okay, now the dates going really well and he's thinking about kissing her. What should he be thinking about here or what should he specifically do?
[Mike Domitrz]: If he's wondering, "Geez, I feel a connection. I wonder if she does?" Ask but here's the key, look her in the eye or him. Whoever your partner is, look the person in the eye. Otherwise, you're just another conversation occurring. Eye contact is so powerful. It's so intimate, on such a deep level. Look this person in the eye and say, "You know, I feel a really strong connection tonight. Do you?" Or, if you want to be more casual, "Do you feel a connection tonight." If they're like, "Yes, I do," then you're like, "Okay, so do I. You know what? May I give you a kiss right now?" Make it fun and playful. Some people are going to ask a little differently because, their voice is different than mine. That's fine. It's a matter of using your words, be respectful and suddenly, you're kissing. Now, you're kissing and it was started because, you used words. How much easier is it going to be for them to continue the intimacy with you and be able to share what they like, what they don't like because, that's how you established this whole relationship. The date, you asked what they wanted. You're asking what they wanted as the night goes on. Now, you're in intimacy, consistency.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay and now, you've been kissing for a while and you want to make the move. You want to take her home or go back to her place. How would you advise to approach that? Simplify that to make it.
[Mike Domitrz]: Right, so ask the question, "Would you love to come back to my place?"
[Angel Donovan]: Okay.
[Mike Domitrz]: Simple question.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, she comes back to your place. Now what?
[Mike Domitrz]: And you want some sexual experience. Is that what you're referring to here?
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah.
[Mike Domitrz]: Right, right. All right, so you want some sexual experience. So, the two of you are hanging out and maybe you do have this conversation before you go back to your place. Everybody's different in what the order they want to do things in. As long as they come back to your place, you don't assume sex is going to happen. That's critically important that if you only ask them to come back to your place, that's all they've agreed to. That needs to be understood. That means, you're going to have another conversation when you get back to your place but, maybe you have it before. That is, "Oh, my gosh. I would love to take this a little further with you, have a little more fun tonight with you." You can do stuff like that. Let's say they say yes, now you're get into where you're about to be intimate with each other. "What do you like? What would you love?" Maybe you're making out and they're starting to touch you a little bit more and you whisper in their ear, where would you love for me to touch you right now?" You're making it playful and fun and it's exciting.
[Angel Donovan]: I know this is going to be a situation that comes up a lot. A lot of girls have inhibitions about sex, as we were talking about earlier. A lot of people in general actually, not just girls but, the way girls... I can imagine a girl responding if you start asking her about sex is she'll put her defenses up because, she doesn't want to be labeled "dirty" or "slut" in your eyes or anyone else's eyes.
[Mike Domitrz]: Here's how you... there's an easy... I'm going to give you a quick solution to this one.
[Angel Donovan]: Great.
[Mike Domitrz]: Early in the date, talk the ridiculous assumptions people make about dating. What it does is... let me give you an example. People say, "What if somebody's never been asked before?" Set the stage for it. So early on on the date, you say to them, "Hey, I don't know about you but, I hate when dates get awkward at the end. Do you feel the same way?" Now, what is everybody going to answer to that? Yes, that's just an easy answer, right? "Yes, I do. I hate when it gets awkward." "Great, let's not have it get awkward. You know what? If you're feeling a connection or I'm feeling a connection, one I love to be asked. I love to have that conversation but, I want you to know that I won't do anything without you wanting to do it either. I would always ask. If the end of this night's going amazing and we feel like there's a kiss there, I'll ask you and I'd love if you'd do the same. Is that cool?" That shows right away, "Oh, wow. All right, this is awesome, no games. Cut out all the games," and you're saying that. "You know what? I believe in cutting out the games. Maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't tonight," but you set the stage.
[Angel Donovan]: That's great advice. It's very effective. You can set the stage in many ways, right?
[Mike Domitrz]: Right.
[Angel Donovan]: "You know; I just like to have straightforward conversations. I hope you do too."
[Mike Domitrz]: Right, or somebody will go... as the night's going on, you feel a connection. You can say, "You know, how do you view first dates? Like for you, do you love physical intimacy if there's a connection? Are you somebody who like, 'Hey, I like to just get to know somebody on a first date.'" What it does, it doesn't mean you want either. If you treat both of those options equally, there's no bias. Now, if you're doing this, "So, do you love physical attraction during a first date or do you like to just talk?" Well, that sounds like you're looking for physical attraction. It looks like you are on the hunt because, that's all you're focused on. You need to genuinely ask the question sincerely as if you don't know the answer because, you don't.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, okay those were some great points there. I still think some it's going to be tricky for guys or some women who are more inhibit and are more averse to the whole slut kind of dimension.
[Mike Domitrz]: By the way, what a great thing to say. What if you are honest about yourself during the evening and go, "You know the one thing I can't stand about dating is how women are treated. Like if a woman wants to be sexual, she's called a slut." As long as these are honest statements. This isn't gamesmanship. "I hate it how this gender's treated this way. I just think it's horrible." You set the stage that frees that so they understand, "Okay, you're not going to view me that or treat me that way." The key here is it needs to be sincere and honest. I don't want people listening going, "I'll say that, I'll say that and I don't believe it." That's highly degrading to your partners. It's egotistical. It's dangerous. It means you're out to conquer versus being a mutual experience.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, great points. Thank you. Thank you for those. Okay, let's round off for now. What are the best ways for people to connect with you and learn more about all of this and your work?
[Mike Domitrz]: They can connect with us on line at http://www.DateSafeProduct.org. Just think, if you're going to go on a date, you want to feel safe and you don't want to feel like it's a project. http://www.DateSafeProduct.org, they can find us there. They can also call us at 800-329-9390 in the United States but, I know a lot of people find us on the website and if you go to the website, you'll find our Facebook, our Twitter, all of our social media. We'd love to connect with everybody out there.
[Angel Donovan]: Excellent, awesome. Who besides yourself would you recommend for high quality advice or knowledge in the whole dating, sex and relationships area besides yourself?
[Mike Domitrz]: There's so many people out there. There really is.
[Angel Donovan]: Top three.
[Mike Domitrz]: There's somebody right... there's Nicole Elissa I was just interviewing Nicole. Nicole Elissa is a love coach and she did some really cool work. I believe it's http://www.nicoleelissa.com, N-I-C-O-L-E-E-L-S-S-A, so two Ss, dot com.
[Angel Donovan]: Anyone else?
[Mike Domitrz]: Well, it really depends on what perspective somebody's looking for? You know what I mean? There are so many different avenues that somebody can come from on these discussions. It would depend on what they're looking for.
[Angel Donovan]: All right, you're not sure?
[Mike Domitrz]: No because, some people are saying, "I'd to talk to you more about what a certain gender wants." Others are saying, "I want confidence." Others will want... and so what I find here... here's my answer to that. I'm a big believer in read books that make you dig into who you are. It's always going to make you a better partner.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay, are there any good books like that?
[Mike Domitrz]: Yes, absolutely. A great book like that could be for instance The Gifts of Imperfection by Berne Brown.
[Angel Donovan]: Okay.
[Mike Domitrz]: Really powerful book. Another book that's a totally mindset than that but, can be different as far as how we pursue life and what we're doing with yourselves would be something like Essentialism by Greg McEwen or these are all things that are more self, dig deep and how I'm viewing things. Another one would be The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, very well known.
[Mike Domitrz]: Great books.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, awesome. Thank you for those.
[Mike Domitrz]: My pleasure.
[Angel Donovan]: It's always useful to get topic recommendations. What would be your top three recommendations for guys, say they're just starting from scratch, beginner, very inexperienced, without any prior to improve their dating life as fast as possible?
[Mike Domitrz]: To learn that your partners, whatever your attraction to whatever partner you have. To learn about that partner. If you want to learn sex, learn about that partner sexual needs, wants, skills, as much as possible and your own. Typically go one route or the other, not well with both. A lot of people will learn, "I am a guy. I want to learn how it's great for me to have sex," or they'll go, "Well, I'm a guy and I'm having..." you know, in your case you said, most of the guys are heterosexual who listen to your show. "I'm a guy that wants to have sex with women. So, I'm going to learn all about what women like," but he doesn't know about his own body. He doesn't understand what he like. You need to learn both. You need to learn both. If you're a guy with guys, learn about male sexuality. If you're a guy with girls, learn both sexuality. It really just depends on that but, that's the key, learn, learn and keep learning. Listen to podcast that you get awesome experts on like your where can learn. I mean, this is an ongoing learning experience and here's why. Society, the media is going to give you such bad role modeling that you need continuous reminders of how to actually live the life versus just a one time because, you're going to see a thousand bad examples to that one time, one positive. You need ongoing. Keep listening to the podcast.
[Angel Donovan]: That's an excellent point. Thank you for bringing that up. So, if you have top three recommendations, one is learning all the time.
[Mike Domitrz]: Learning all the time, growing yourself. I mean, that's just massive and then, being the person you want to attract. I mean, that's so important out there. People say, "Well, I want to attract this person, blah, blah, blah, blah," and you go, "Okay, and how are you to that person as an attraction? What are you presenting to the world?" That's really important because, some people go, "All women this," or "All men that." All right well, what are you? "Well, I'm a great catch." "Okay, why?" Which, by the way, I believe you are but, why? Do you know why? Are there ways that you're deterring people away? Self-exploration is so important and that's that growth, that self-exploration. Always learning. All of these are the same. Then, the last one is get out there. Get out there and try. It's okay to be told no as long as you're respectful. It's perfectly okay. Be willing to hear no and that's really pivotally important. Be willing to hear no, respect the answer and wait until you find the right match. You'll get a yes. That doesn't mean wait as in don't try. I mean, keep going until you find the right match, until you get that yes. That's so important out there is taking that step... look, it takes three seconds to approach someone. Three seconds. Once you start talking, if there is a connection, you usually get a pretty good vibe pretty quick. If there's not, you know pretty quick and you move on and that's okay. Not everybody needs to be your fit. How I describe it is compare it to a director casting a movie. They could have 2,000 actors that audition for that role and a handful are the right fit. that doesn't mean the other 1995 weren't awesome actors. They weren't the right fit though, not for that part. So, you have to understand, you're not going to be the right fit for everybody's part and they're not all going to be the right fit for your part. It's part of the exploration of finding the right fit.
[Angel Donovan]: Mike, thank you for that and thank you for the whole discussion. It's been very interesting. It's completely new, unique kind of topic and approach to it that we haven't had on the show. At this stage, we've been doing this for a while so, it's not always easy to find. So, I'm really glad you reached out to us as well and we got this together. Thank you for your time.
[Mike Domitrz]: Well, thanks for having me on, Angel. I appreciate. It's been a lot of fun.
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DSR Podcast is a weekly podcast where Angel Donovan seeks out and interviews the best experts he can find from bestselling authors, to the most experienced people with extreme dating lifestyles. The interviews were created by Angel Donovan to help you improve yourself as men - by mastering dating, sex and relationships skills and get the dating life you aspire to.
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