Ep. #20 Getting Girlfriends (AND Keeping Them or Getting Them Back) with Mehow

[Mehow]: Hey.

[Angel Donovan]: Hey, it’s good to have you on. Thanks for coming.

[Mehow]: No worries.

[Angel Donovan]: Good. Mehow’s launched a couple of programs over the last year, year and a half, called The One(der) System and NSA, No Strings Attached. The specific aspects of these are that they are focused more on girlfriends. So the subject we’re going to talk about today is girlfriends, how to get them, how to keep them, getting your ex back, and also like if you want to date multiple girls, why would you do that and how would you do it.

So what are the biggest differences in approach for getting a girlfriend versus just hooking up with a girl? If it’s a girl that you’re just a bit interested in, you just want to hook up, do you approach it differently from a girl that you’re really serious about and you really think that this girl’s going to be important to you and maybe you’ve got ideas about getting married or something crazy like that, but whatever it is, you’re serious about it and you really want it to work out?

[Mehow]: So, ironically, if you really want to get a girl as a girlfriend, the pickup should be the same as if you’re just trying to pick her up for a hookup.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: The differences come basically during the pickup. I want to have a key place where I make it obvious. If it’s just a hookup, I say, “I’m not boyfriend material.”

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Right? And that actually makes the pickup usually tighter.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: Because basically it’s an IOD. Why? She’s already into you. Because you say this like three, four, five, six, seven, eight hours in, like sometime on a day two or if it’s just like SNL, like you’re a couple of hours into it, that's when you stay stuff like that. And that tends to make a girl that only wants a hookup be chill with it, and it tends to make a girl that wants you to be the boyfriend like chase you a little harder. But it can also blow out a boyfriend set or a set where you can become the boyfriend. So if it’s a girl I’m genuinely interested in, I’ll just say something like I really love your personality and these xy qualities about you, like really hilarious and make me laugh.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: And you just quality, right? You don’t say anything else. Because basically, like qualification is the only thing you really need to get a woman, to convince a woman that you’re into her for more than just her looks.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: And that's something that will start twiddling the “hey, I want to get with this guy” sort of vibe. But that's the only difference. I mean, it’s a small tactical difference. It’s whether you say “I’m not boyfriend material” or not, because you’re constantly qualifying anyway, right, or you should be.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Like even if it’s an SNL, I’m like constantly qualifying.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so you’ve used some terminology there I just wanted to clear up. The main thing you’re talking about here is qualifying, which is you’re talking about in terms of qualifying to the girl that you’re interested in her or more than just her looks, right? You’re basically giving reasons for your interest in her by asking her questions about herself or telling her that you’re interested in her because of something in her personality or in the vibe between you.

[Mehow]: Right. So, I guess it’d be good for your viewers to explain qualification a bit, right? Because most guys that are starting out, they really don’t know what it is and it’s something that is really important.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: I’ve been doing it for so long now that it’s just like second nature or something. So now I’m like, “Just qualify. Just go ahead and qualify.”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Mehow]: Right? Qualification is simply judging like a quality that she has about her, it’s a positive quality, particularly from the point of view of like a girlfriend or in a pickup. And it’s important for SNLs and girlfriend-type stuff, but for girls when she really, really, really has to know that you’re into her for more than just her looks. Because sometimes when SNL, like with party girls and stuff, they don’t really care that much. Sometimes they just want cock. Although pretty much I’ve never had a situation where qualification hurt me, like it’s always good, you should always do it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Right? So when you qualify you’re just looking for positive qualities about you. You don’t have to ask a question to see them. I mean, a lot of times you can just be like, “I love your smile.” You just qualify on something she is that isn’t like you’re-hot-and-I-want-to-fuck-you-type stuff. So when you’re qualifying, what you want to do is you want to positively describe the quality that you observe in her or she told you about or you asked her about.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Like, “What’s your favorite thing to do ever?” She’s like, “I love to travel.”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: “You know what, I absolutely love girls that travel. It’s so awesome. We’re going to go all over the world and have incredible adventures together.” So that's an example of positive qualification.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: But at the same time, once you’re done with the positive qualification of whatever quality you just qualified, you want to leave her suspended between hope and doubt. Like, “We’ll travel the world together and it’ll be totally awesome, but I don’t know if it’ll work out because you look kind of like you like to get in arguments. Are we going to argue all the time?” And at that point you also get closer to her, get like very physical, and you something like, “Are we going to argue all the time?” And they just like get into that and take that up.

So the pattern for qualification is IOI, then IOD. It’s indicator of interest to the quality, then indicator of disinterest. So it’s like positive and negative. And the reason you do that is you don't want her to think that she’s got you, because the second a girl knows she’s got you, like everything starts to die down. Like you want to be the higher-social-value person. You want her to chase you. You don’t want to be selling anything, right?

So the second you say to the girl, “Oh, I like you,” generally the pickup will start to immediately turn stale right there. Ultimately, the way she’s got it figured out that you like her is when you stick your dick in her, right? Like that's the ultimate “I like you,” right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: After that you can tell her you like her, because after that everything flips. Like once a girl has sex with a guy, then all of a sudden she stops thinking about, “Well, is this…” you know, all the reasons why not to get with this guy, and now she starts thinking all the reasons why she did get with this guy, right, and why he's awesome. So from a how-to-get-a-girlfriend point of view, you actually want to sleep with her as fast as humanly possible, because that's usually when the sort of bullshit of the pickup stops and the real relationship begins. Like after the sex, everybody just drops the act, like both the guy and the girl.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: So, ironically, the way you get girlfriends is just by being a really good pickup artist. And then, once you have her, that's when your game gets very different between sort of a girl you want to sleep with once a week versus a girl that you want to move into your house or have her come over three times or whatever.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: That's the basis of qualification. Like another example that's sort of humorous, the pattern I usually use is I’ll get a quality from her that I’ll ask a question on. Like last night a girl told me she worked at Wells Fargo, she was a banker, and she says, “Hey, I’m a banker and I do math good.” I’m like, “That's awesome. That totally turns me on, like I love nerds. I love nerdy girls. But you know what would be weird, is if we hook up together and you start accounting all the tiles on the ceiling.” And so she laughs at the IOD and she accepts the IOI, right, and that keeps her suspended between hope and doubt.

The one exception to that rule is when you’re talking about like things that are super-super-important to her, like core values, like fundamental need stuff, like freedom or wanting to be loved. Core value stuff, like things that you think are super-important to her, you just IOI, and I only do that like once during the pickup. So for example, the girl says, “I love to travel,” what she’s really usually saying is, “I actually like to be free.”

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Makes sense.

[Mehow]: And so then I’ll say, “Well, you know what, I totally love hanging around people that are free, like I surround myself with free people and it’s just a beautiful thing.” And she’ll be like, “You know what, that's amazing, like I’m really into that,” and all of a sudden you have this big bond.

But I don’t directly IOI the quality. I don’t say to her at that point, “Hey, I really like the fact that your fundamental need is the need for freedom.” I go about it a roundabout way. I say, “I love to surround myself with people that have this xyz fundamental quality.”

So that's a thing that's really useful in terms of qualification. So there's qualification. Then, sometimes you feel like stalled out and don’t know what to… You know, she’s not qualifying, just ask her…

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so let's move just a bit back. On that part where you said that you qualify a bit differently when it comes to a core value and you don’t add in the indicator of disinterest, the IOD, the thing that keeps it suspended between hope and doubt, what’s the difference? Why do you have to do that?

[Mehow]: What’s the difference between…? Because something that's really important to her, you don’t want to make a joke out of it. You don’t want to IOD it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Right.

[Mehow]: Like most of the things she tells you should be like light, fluffy, kind of fun things.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: But some of the things she should very definitely make happen—sorry, I got somebody texting me here about a launch… So, the core values, you have to just be positive. But you can’t be overtly positive with it because you can’t say, “Oh, I love you,” because of that, because then again it kills the entire hope and doubt, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: So basically, it’s really easy to IOI/IOD. If you’ve got to IOI something subtlely, you do it in a roundabout way, for example by saying that you hang out with people that have that quality and you really admire it.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. So it’s avoiding talking about her directly.

[Mehow]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. That's good.

[Mehow]: So yeah, so that's the jam. And in terms of how do you elicit stuff, if there was a wanted poster, how do you elicit qualification information, date of birth, you can ask questions or it just comes up at conversation, but example questions are, if there's a wanted poster of you on that wall behind you, what would you be wanted for? And if you had a special secret superpower, what would it be? Or, simply, what do you do for work? What’s the funnest thing that you’ve ever done? Where do you like to travel? Like what’s the coolest place you’ve been to? So those are all questions that will elicit answers that you can qualify.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So the purpose of those questions is to get her to say something that you can then qualify easily, you can then say, “Yeah, I like that.”

[Mehow]: Right. Yeah, so it makes it easy.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it’s pretty straightforward and clear. And so what you were saying earlier is that qualification’s a bit more important when it comes to girlfriends and you were saying that you should qualify a bit differently if you’re really serious about the girl?

[Mehow]: No, no, it’s not that.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Mehow]: It’s not the type of girl that you want to qualify differently.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: It’s the type of information that the girl’s giving you, regardless of the type of pickup this is that you want to qualify differently.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Mehow]: Like even total sluts have fundamental needs, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: Generally maybe it’s a need for love and affection, or freedom like, you know, party girls, they want to be free and they want to get fucked a lot.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: So, [laughs] I would say if she starts talking about just… If I feel she’s that type of person, I’ll say for example, you know, “I love surrounding myself with passionate, loving people that they love without really thinking about the consequences. Those are the best kind of people and that's the best kind of…”

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you got anything to say about selection? Because we’re talking about different types of girls here. You made references to party girls who are probably in a different state in their life or they just have different ideas of lifestyle versus, say, a professional, I don’t know, lawyer in New York City, you know, pretty serious lifestyle, compared to partying, you know, not so focused on career and stuff. So have you got any advice about how you should select women that you’re interested in for a girlfriend or how you should approach it differently depending on the type of woman?

[Mehow]: I generally just calibrate my pick-up material, so like… I mean, pretty much I just do live pickup, and I’ll do a lot of… I mean, if you do online game, for example, you can kind of select a little bit who she is.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: But ultimately, they all respond to high-impact openers, they all respond to emotional stimulation.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: So like difference between, say, an intellectual girl and a girl who just likes to party is the party girl will just have a lot of emotional conversation and have a lot of fun with her and I won’t get much into like logical stuff.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: Whereas like intellectual girl, I’ll give her a little more real data and a little less just emotional stimulation. But in terms of like if you were watching me do a pickup, you probably could almost not tell the difference, because it’s not like I’m sitting there measuring, “Alright, well, I’ve given her this much emotional stimulation, now it’s time to talk logically.” Like pretty much everything I say is emotionally stimulating. It’s just like, you know, if she gives me sort of a logical response and looks like she’s looking for a logical answer, a girl that's more sort of mature, I’ll maybe mess with her just a notch less, like I’ll tease her a little less, I’ll be edgy a little less.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: You know, give her like comfort elements more, right? So it’s like she wants real data… Like this is true for, say, older women, like if you’re picking up cougars or like women who are like 35 or older, they tend to just be more direct.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: Whereas like a girl that is young yet when you mess with her she generally thinks it’s all positive, like a 35-year-old might get a little more frustrated with that, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: But you can tell that just like right infield, like you don’t really have to have… I don’t have like a pretty set game plan because I’ve also gone to plenty of sets where like there's a 35-year-old party girl, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Like, so it’s really hard. Until you’re in the moment, you can’t really sort of preplan it, right? You basically just calibrate. And the way I calibrate is I’ll sort of run my default happy fun game and get really close to her and get very physical, and depending on her reactions, then I might tone down a notch. But ultimately, it all kind of looks like the same thing. And I’m not even sure if it really makes that much difference. Like other than if you’re getting a lot of negative reactions to what you’re doing in the pickup, you should stop doing those things, right? [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Mehow]: If you completely ignore the feedback she’s giving you, then you’re going to be done, but understand that like when you have a really tight pickup and she’s into you and you say something wrong and she doesn’t like it and, you get like, “You’re such an asshole, I love you,” right? It’s like an IOD with an IOI in it. She likes that. The thing is, most women are attracted to a little bit of an edge, a little bit of a bad boy attitude. So when you screw up, sometimes you’re just doing that and it actually helps the pickup.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: So the point is you just have to read her emotional state, right? You basically just have to figure out where she’s at, and she’s just pretty much going to tell you. Like if you screw up, a lot of times she’ll be like, “Oh, I didn’t like that. That's not hot,” or whatever.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So you’re saying she’ll tell you directly or…?

[Mehow]: She'll give you signals with her body language or eye contact or like, “Uh, that was weird,” or she’ll just switch topics or any of the different types IOD. She might lean back, she might stop smiling, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: So these are all the things that you’re looking for. Any indicator of disinterest from her is generally… She’s either teasing you, in which case it’ll be playful and fun, plus an indicator of disinterest, or it’s just an IOD. If it’s just an IOD, you just have to watch out for those, and then calibrate accordingly.

[Angel Donovan]: Well, that's a good distinction and I think, you know, that's helpful for all guys that there are different types of IODs. There's the one where she could be teasing you and it’s not necessarily so bad, so it’s more playful, as you said, right?

[Mehow]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: Or if it’s just a plain IOD, then that's more of a negative sign and it’s probably a sign that whatever you’re doing isn’t the way to continue to approach her.

[Mehow]: Right, and another way to sort of explain, like this is why you you don’t really have to think about the stuff beforehand, is if she likes to tease, generally she’ll… If she likes being teased, generally she’ll tease you back, and an appropriate response for her teasing you is you tease her harder.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: So it’s just sort of her behavior that drives what you’re doing next, right? So with a girl that's like a high-impact sort of party girl and just has a lot of social skills, there’ll be a lot of… She’ll essentially be dropping a lot of game on me…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: …and so then you just drop a bunch of game on her. Whereas a girl that's like sort of more shy or more demure will not be doing that. Like you should still tease both girls, but obviously the one that's the party girl you’re going to tease way more. But you make that decision right infield, right?

And the way I teach guys game is to be like naturals, like teach them sort of default, “Alright, this is default pickup.”

[Angel Donovan]: Yup.

[Mehow]: “This is how to start off, and then this is how you calibrate. Like when x happens, this is what you do.” When a girl’s teasing you, the appropriate response is tease her back, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: So, for example, if she’s like, “I don’t like your shoes,” I’ll be like, “I don’t like your face,” right? And then we continue.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, which is directly teasing her back. Okay.

[Mehow]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that makes sense, and I like the way you put it. I haven’t heard it put that way before. That makes it very clear to guys. But it’s also interesting that, you know, basically you’re saying that the girl defines the way you’re going to communicate with her, right, by the way she’s communicating with you.

[Mehow]: Yeah, exactly, because you’re always free-associating off what she just said usually.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Mehow]: I mean, my game is very technical in the sense that I always know what I’m doing, like I always know what I’m doing next.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: And then when she gives me a response, I have like three or four optimal paths that are probably correct.

[Angel Donovan]: Yup. Yeah, yeah.

[Mehow]: And so, but the free association is essentially what you do is driven by what she’s saying. So an intellectual girl will tend to have more normal sort of comfort-based conversation, whereas a party girl will tend to tease you more, be more of a bitch, and try to outdominate you, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: And so, obviously, it’s like if she’s trying to dominate you and then you free associate into like a comfort story about middle school, you’re just going to kill your set.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: Right? The whole point of free association is that, you know, the rule is that you can switch different communication elements. So for example, it’s like you can go from comfort to something sexual as long as they share some sort of topical link between them, right? So it’s like you can’t just completely arbitrarily free-associate into something totally different.

So the actual technical description of the sort of miscalibration, if somebody says, “Oh, I said the wrong thing to the wrong type of girl,” usually what they mean is they just simply incorrectly free-associated.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: But what that means is all you have to do to do it right is just correctly free-associate.

[Angel Donovan]: You know, it strikes me—this is kind of off-topic, but it kind of strikes me that this is probably one of the biggest issues that I’ve seen guys come across, is that when they start studying like dating advice, pickup advice or all this stuff, they tend to read about a system and learn about the system, and then I think they kind of stop calibrating, right, to the woman, because they’ve learned this stuff, which is like, “Oh, this attracts women,” and they kind of do that irrespective of how the girl’s reacting to them. Is that something you’ve seen?

[Mehow]: Yeah, but I mean, there’s an explanation for that too, because the stacking, the stuff you’re talking about where somebody’s just like gunning through routines and stuff…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: That works great in attraction. The reason it works great in attraction is because in attraction you almost don’t care what the response is.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Like in attraction, all you really want her to do is laugh, right? Like laugh and basically IOI you. Like that's really all you expect in the first two, three minutes of a pickup.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: So if you have a really tight stack, we teach guys the sound bite stack, like we teach guys, “Alright, this is the two-second thing you’re going to say to her now.” And because it’s so predictable what a response is, you can then string those sound bites into what we call a stack, right? And this is different from a routine stack, because like a routine stack in the sort of classical sense generally tends to be like a longer routine where you just kind of talk for a while.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Like I just completely don’t to that game anymore. I haven’t done it in like five years. I mean, that's kind of like you would call it classic mystery method, like the opinion openers.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: The reason that they don’t work that well is because you’re doing a lot of the talking and they’re not doing much reacting, so there's an imbalance in sort of effort in the pickup, like you’re doing all the work and they’re not doing any, and then you sort of lose the set. When you shorten what you’re saying, it makes the effort seem equal and it makes it even more equal when you start to do stuff like what we call massively self-amusing, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Where you stay stuff that really you could be saying to a mirror because it’s freaking funny, and she knows it, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: And when that happens, it’s just off the material. Like I’ll be like, “Debbie? Debbie from middle school? You look so much hotter without the braces.” And I’ll just say that to like a random girl.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: And she’ll start laughing, and she knows that I’m doing it for fun for me. So in that sense, the automated stuff works as long as you’re self-amusing and you have a tight stack and her reactions are predictable.

[Angel Donovan]: However, man, like I want to push back just a bit on here because, especially with girlfriends, I think if you take that too far and you kind of don’t back away from it, you just kind of continue with it and you don’t calibrate like we were talking about a second ago, that's when you start getting, how would say, a lot more crazy pickup? You’re kind of introducing her into a state which is a lot harder to manage, and she can go kind of more emotional in different ways and it could just kind of make it… It can introduce more elements into it, so different behaviors. She can start acting a bit more crazy and going one way or the other, acting dramatic and start maybe testing you more…

[Mehow]: Yeah, but that's like, I mean, so if a girl starts going that way and there's more emotional stimulation, that's always good for the pickup, and it’s irrelevant whether you want to make her a girlfriend or an SNL.

[Angel Donovan]: Really?

[Mehow]: Like I have plenty of girls that have been my girlfriends for years that I’ve picked up with like, if you saw the pickup you’d be like, “Wow, it’s a lot of buying temperature game” right? You’d be like, “Wow, they’re just really having a great time and that’s it.” Like the style of pickup, the initial pickup, pre-sex, has no bearing on what the final outcome is in terms of her being your girlfriend or not as long as it’s a good pickup, as long as she’s really, really into you. So I like it when they start to act crazy. I like it when they start to act dramatic.

To answer your question though, about guys sort of being stuck in a particular mold of communication and miscalibrated because of material, the stacking stuff I’m talking about we only do for the first two or three minutes, sometimes just the first minute. After that, everything, the entire relationship, everything that's going on, is based on what she just said, so there are rules for how you free-associate in this type of communication. It’s pretty straightforward, like all this is actually in both the Oneder and NSA system. There's a few different types of communication and I basically teach you how to do the free association, then I do like a demo on a live girl for like two hours where I sit there and just like, [laughs] we just go back and forth.

And that girl happened to be a girl that responded really well to buying temperature. She’s kind of a player and she teased me a lot back. It was sort of an extreme example of what you have to deal with. At the same time, like she’s a girl that wants a relationship, right? So again, there's really no like preconceived, “Okay, so well, it’s a party girl. That means she must be awful in relationships.” No, completely not true, right? Or she’s a librarian chick or a lawyer, she doesn’t want to have fun. Totally not true, right?

So the point is that as soon as you’re done with attraction, after that you have to calibrate to what she just said because if you’re not taking the value she’s given you and turning it into something else constantly for hours at a time, then she feels like, that's the technical definition of miscalibration. Like she’ll talk about a story about how she went to an orchard when she was a kid, and then you just start talking about cars, right? Like she’ll be like, “What’s wrong with this guy?” even if the car story is amazing, right? It just makes no sense, right? So you can take a terrific piece of material and like completely blow yourself out of a set by using material in the wrong way.

So for example, she starts telling a story about she went to an orchard when she was a little kid, she had apples, or here was an apple orchard in her parents’ backyard or family farm, for example, right? And you’re like, “You know what’s amazing? The other night I was at a traffic light and there was this carload of girls right next to me.”

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: “And then they were all giggling at me and stuff and I just kind of ignored it. But anyway, then the light turned green and they went smack right into the car in front of them.” Like that's a great story, it’s a great piece of material, but it’s got nothing to do with the story she just said, right? So the way you calibrate…

Okay, so now I’m going to give you an example of how I would calibrate the orchard story if a party girl said versus if like a nursing student, a lawyer chick said it, right? So if a party girl’s like, “Yeah, you know, I used to, when I was a kid…” Like I asked her about, “What was your favorite thing to do as a kid?” She was like, “Well, I went out. I grew up in a farm and it had this apple orchard and like every Sunday we’d go pick apples.”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: So as a party girl, I would just say, “So you were introduced to the Garden of Eden at a very early age,” right? And she’d get that. She’d be like, “Ha ha, that's really funny,” right? So I’m taking her comfort element and I’m turning it into something like actually sexual essentially.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Right? And she’ll be like, “That's pervy,” you know, she might say, “That's pervy,” and I would like play it up. I would say, “Well, it’s so much harder when it’s illegal. I have a totally noncreepy van out back in a dark alley. Let's go.”

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mehow]: Right? And like a party girl will get all that, and as long as… I mean, the other thing, I have a caveat, like when I extreme verbal examples like that, you have to extremely… Like your whole presence, like she has to be into you if you’re staying stuff like that, like you can’t…

Oh, actually this is a girl calling. Wow, I could actually run game on here right now. You won’t be able to hear what she’s saying but let's give this a shot. [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mehow]: Hello. Hey. Hold on a second. Hello. Hey, hey. Dave doesn’t want to go out tonight, so I’m just going to be free. I’m just going to be free. I’m going to be free to party with you and your girlfriend, the one you’re picking up at the airport. Oh, what did I say? Did you hear not hear what I just said? Do I have to give you a new hearing aid? [Laughs] Yeah. I’m going to bring like a triple-phone carrier. I’m going to bring three big guys, they’re going to [laughs] like take your phone from you. Alright, alright. Settle down there. Alright.

So what’s the plan? So what’s the plan? [Laughs] So what’s the plan? So you’re picking up your friend, okay, and she’s really skinny and we’re going to have to take her to the ice cream place. Your girlfriend. [Laughs] No, I did not call you fat. I said your friend was skinny. Hello?. Settle down. Settle down.

What did you do? Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. [Laughs] You did not just say that. Alright, so what time are we meeting up? Hey babe. Babe. Yeah. Okay, I’m listening. Go ahead. That is awesome. So do you have these awesome new shoes? Are you going to show them to me tonight? The shoes. [Laughs] It’s awesome. Yeah, so you’re going to leave like more shoes at my house now, even though you have more shoes at my house and I’m going to have to like make a special like shoe closet for you. [Laughs]

No, they’re nice. The picture is kind of shitty, like I’m not a professional shoot photographer. [Laughs] Oh, you did not just say that. You’re so getting spanked tonight. You’re so getting spanked tonight for the all mouthing off. [Laughs] I said you’re getting spanked, and then you said, “Do you want to bang?” It’s like you always mishear stuff, and it’s awesome because you always mishear it in a sexual way. I’ll be like, “Do you want to get spanked?” [Laughs] And you’re like, “Do I want to bang?” I’m like, “Yeah, of course, you want to bang.” I mean, you always want to bang and that's why I like you.

Alright, so what time are we meeting up, babe? Babe. What time are we meeting up? What time are we meeting up? Yes, I’m here. Ten. Ten is perfect, yeah. Okay, I go to… I mean, usually I go to Roosevelt, but Cat House is cool. So yes… I’ve never been there either, so let's go there together, and if it sucks we can go to an ice cream place and fatten your friend up. [Laughs] No, I said if it sucks. Pay attention. [Laughs] I said… You put me on speaker, that's awesome.

[Laughs] Ever since the day you’ve touched it, it hates life now, right? No, I was saying if the Cat House sucks… [Laughs] Yes, that's what I said. I want to bang you at Cat House. Let's just leave it at that. [Laughs] Okay, cool. That's awesome. So we’ll bring your friend and I’ll bang you at Cat House and and I guess she’ll watch and it’ll be awesome. No, I said just bang you, but if your friend wants to join us, I guess it’s okay. Is she cool? [Laughs] Okay, I will. I’ll only steal minor property from you today like change. I won’t take your phone. I’ll just… I’ll take your change and your lipstick slowly… [Laughs]

Everything is chill. Alright, so you want me to pick you up…? Yeah, that should be best. I’ll pick you up. You going to be at your house with your friend? Okay. Well, we have room for three girls in the car as long as none of them are fat. And what? Yeah, we could totally put the top down. Yeah. No, it’s the backseat’s not that great, so we’ll just… We’ll put the top down. Alright. So I’ll pick you up at 10, yeah? Cool. Alright. Have fun shoe shopping. Right.

So, basically, anyway, I’m back.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, cool. Can you just give me a sort of quick context to that? What’s the previous relationship and what’s the kind of situation?

[Mehow]: Right. So like one thing to sort of back up on is just to finish to talk about…

[Angel Donovan]: Sure, sure.

[Mehow]: …just calibrating in midgame. So basically you just want to free-associate off what she just said in an appropriate way.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: So I was giving you an example about the orchard and I gave you like the party girl example, and then right then the party girl called me.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: The thing is I’m basically in a relationship with a party girl, and if I wanted to make her my girlfriend I could. This one’s kind of nuts, so it’s probably not going to happen, [laughs] just because like she’s just too crazy for me, like, you know, she’s super-fun, but it’s like as that conversation was happening she was like talking to her friends, driving. Like it’s just how she rolls, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: And probably not great, like girlfriend material, because then you have to manage that all the time. But there are also like other party girls that have different modes. This girl doesn’t, really, okay? [Laughs]

Anyway, I’ll get back to like what the context for that was, but then to calibrate the orchard story for a more intellectual girl, and you know, I could free-associate in a completely different way and just say, “Well, you know what, I totally love going home to my parents and hanging out with them, because that's what that experience is totally about. So one at Christmas, you know…” I go into like a funny Christmas story, right? So you saw like the big difference. Like there's emotional stimulation in both, but one’s kind of more calibrated towards the super-fun party girl and the other one’s calibrated towards like the normal chicks.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right, because you’re talking about two types of calibration, like we’re talking about the topic, like you don’t go off on a tangent, start talking about a completely different topic without some kind of connection on those topics, and there's the emotional bit, right, which is where we started at kind of the beginning of this…

[Mehow]: Yeah. I mean, if you want… The model that I use is a little more specific because if I just say to a guy, “Be more emotional and then do this with the topic,” it’s insufficient data for them to figure out what they have to do, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: So I’m a little more specific. But you’re correct that those are roughly the two axes, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: There’s basically like what she just said, you take in her topic and you’re doing a delta of what she just said topically, right? So you’re doing some change, and it can’t be too crazy because then it seems weird.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: And it can’t be the same because then it seems like you’re seeking rapport and you’re mirroring.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: And the same thing happens with the level of emotional content, which the term I use for that is called emotional value velocity. It’s like the rate of emotional stimulation. You can have it be cranked up to 5 or you can have it cranked up to 11 on a scale of 1 to 10.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: And basically those two examples kind of show you the difference between like, oh, this is a 2 and this is an 11. And some girls respond more to 11 and you just have to hit the 11 button all the time, and other girls respond more to 2, but ultimately, at some point in the pickup, all girls respond to 11. It’s not like you’re just keeping that… You want to keep that volume knob rotating as you go through the pickup. You don’t just want to set it at one thing and be like, “Alright, well, if I set it to 11 it's going to work, even with the party girls you calibrate it.”

[Angel Donovan]: Right. However, different girls have kind of different baselines where they start off, and also kind of like they spend more time in different emotional zones. Would you say that's true?

[Mehow]: Right. So then, to just give you an example of what just happened right there, like this girl is very unpredictable in terms of what… Like sometimes, there was one point in the conversation where I was just like hammering the emotional button and she was like, “Babe, babe, stop, stop. What are you doing? Like I just want to talk about how you’re going to pick me up. Why are you being a weirdo?” right?

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mehow]: Like two seconds before she was completely down for the exact same type of communication.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: Right? So this is an example of like… So then she’s just like, “Why are you being a retard?” so just kind of IODing me. So then I IOD her too but I tone it down a bit. I’m like, “Okay, well…” I don’t remember what I said, but I think I said something like, “I’m going to have to bring the whip,” or “I’m going to have to bring three like big beefy dudes to steal your…” Because this is the girl I’m sleeping with, and there was an incident where she was like obnoxiously on her phone, so like one of my wings was nearby and he like picked up her phone and it’s just like, “Oh, cool fun.” I was like, “Take it. Take the phone.” [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mehow]: And he ran off with it. And then she got super-pissed-off and like basically stormed [laughs] off and I ended up like alone. But then [laughs] like she came… Like today we talked and we worked it all out and she was like apologized for, well, being a bitch and storming off, and I apologized for jacking her phone. Then again I was like, “When I’m with you, you can’t be on your phone half the time.”

[Angel Donovan]: Right. That stuff’s funny, but it was kind of what I was relating to earlier, is like when you do that stuff it can introduce more craziness, as you just put it, into the conversation. So they’re going to tend to go more different ways, and then you’re going to have to control that. Especially in a relationship, that really isn’t probably something that you’re looking for, right? Because it can be distracting…

[Mehow]: No, no, I’m completely okay with it because the biggest problem of a relationship is getting stale, so every time there's an easy opportunity to have a bunch of emotional stimulation I take it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Right? At the same time, you also want to be with a girl where you can just like lay it there, say nothing, and she’s still cool. Like that's kind of like the relationship test for me, because I don’t want to constantly be working.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Mehow]: Like I don’t want to sit there and be like, “Alright, what do I say next to make here like start laughing really hard?” But that's not really the way to go.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: Right? But there are girls that are basically extremely difficult to have relationships with for this reason, and they tend to be party girls. Like normal girls tend to be less fun, less emotionally stimulating, maybe even more boring for the guy.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Yeah.

[Mehow]: But you need less work, right, at the same time.

[Angel Donovan]: Totally.

[Mehow]: So what I was looking for is like the happy medium, and like that particular girl amongst the sort of three I’m seeing right now, she’s too… She’s a little crazy. Like she’s too high value velocity all the time, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, which is fun for us, right? Especially I guess when you first start meeting, picking up girls, you’re kind of more into that. But after a while, you know, you want the other part of the relationship where you can relax sometimes too.

[Mehow]: Yeah. You want to a girl… And with her it’s like she relaxes after she gets lots of sex…

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mehow]: Right?

[Angel Donovan]: But otherwise no. [Laughs]

[Mehow]: But otherwise, you know, there isn’t a whole lot of chillness going on…

[Angel Donovan]: Right. That's kind of selection, right? We’re talking about selection.

[Mehow]: Right. And then there are like two other girls that like I have there just… They’re that much fun but they can turn it off, right? So it’s just a matter of selection, not so much a matter of calibration, because you’re really calibrating to what just happened. Like that's what you’re calibrating. You’re not calibrating to her type. Once you get to know her, you can kind of expect like how she’s going to go…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: So you can be prepared for it. But ultimately you don’t have 100% predictive ability, right? So you just go with the moment. Like that's what I train guys to do, is not to think about like, “Okay, not what do I have to do to get this type of girl?” because that's really not the relevant question. The relevant question is, what’s the appropriate response to what she just did?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: And that's what you’re training on.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so how important would you say calibration is like compared to other aspects, this type of…?

[Mehow]: Calibration is appropriate free association and it’s pretty much the be all, end all. I mean, it’s like 90% of a pickup.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. I would agree with that. I just think people don’t emphasize that enough. I don’t hear about it enough, and so I just wanted you to say that. Okay, cool. Let's go attack another subject. So…

Okay, right. This is a girl you’re really interested in and you’d really like her to be your girlfriend and you don’t want to take any risks, right? Because this is what I found about your Wonder system program.

[Mehow]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: That's the focus it has. It’s like, you know, this is your one girl that you've been dreaming about… [Mehow]: Exactly. That's why it’s called One(der).

[Angel Donovan]: The one that you’re interested in.

[Mehow]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So you don’t want to take any risks. So it emphasizes an approach which the goal I understood as is really to reduce the risks of messing it up to as low as possible. And maybe it takes a bit longer, but the goal was just to try and limit those risks. Is that how you designed it or…?

[Mehow]: It’s just like the Wonder system is basically designed how to do a pickup for a girlfriend.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: I wouldn’t say less risk is the key to it.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Mehow]: I would say that the key to it is not disqualifying yourself as a sort of permanent relationship suitor, and so I just leave all the sort of playery stuff out of it.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. So what would be playery stuff?

[Mehow]: Excessive jealousy, like going on the club like getting six other phone numbers on the night you’re meeting her.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so let's start with just that, right? So should you be taking other numbers in front of her if she’s kind of your one(der) girl? Is that a risk or…? Because you know, a lot of people talk about the power of jealousy, getting girls more interested in you if you’re taking numbers, but in your experience, is that something you want to do if you’re interested in her as a girlfriend?

[Mehow]: You still want to get jealousy always on the beginning pickup, it’s just you don’t want to overdo it. Like a party girl will be more tolerant of you talking to other girls, because she’ll be like, “Whatever, I’m just going to talk to other guys or I’m going to talk to my girlfriends,” right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: Whereas a girl that's like really into you may sort of disqualify you, like, “Oh, he's too much of a player,” right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. So then again it’s calibration.

[Mehow]: Right. So there I’m calibrating to the type of girl almost, which is it’s ironic I just said that, because I was kind of saying it’s not really that important. But there's one example where it is, right? So, yeah. So, I mean, that's just the reason calibration… I wasn’t even… Like that's what I normally do in the field, but like I wasn’t even conscious of it. So, thanks for pointing it out. If I’m with a raging party girl, I don’t care how much jealousy I get, it’s all okay. If I’m with a girl that's like more chill and reserved or more sophisticated, then I play down the jealousy.

[Angel Donovan]: Well, yeah. I guess the reason I bring that up is like I’ve been living in Asia for a long time and the cultural differences, it provides more extremes in the way girls are, right, and you get very traditional types, which you probably haven’t seen over in the US, because it could be pretty extreme in China or in places like that. And if you go and get a girl’s number and they see it, then it’s over. They can’t talk to you anymore because they're going to lose face and there's a lot of other stuff going on. So in the West, that doesn’t really happen. There's not girls as extreme as that, but there are probably some girls moving more towards that angle rather than the party girl.

[Mehow]: Yeah. Agreed.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah. Okay. You know, another cool thing I thought was the stuff about getting your ex-girlfriend back because I know a lot of guys actually kind of start getting into dating advice and relationship advice and pickup artistry basically because they lost that one girl that they really liked, right?

[Mehow]: Yeah, yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: And they want her back. So I liked the part of the program where you’re talking about getting the ex back. Could you talk a bit about that?

[Mehow]: Yeah, so basically the sort of proven method for getting your ex back is social circle game, which is basically not getting like all bitter and not acting all emotional. I mean, especially if you’re new, that's going to be really, really difficult, but this is just, I’m just telling you, like this is what you have to do if you want your ex back.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: It’s not easy process.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: But the proven process is to get her in a social circle where you’re dating other girls, talking to other girls, and she’s just a friend of yours, right? And she knows it. I mean, she broke up with you presumably, right? So she should be completely cool with it. The thing is, what starts happening when she sees you have all this success with other women, then the jealousy starts to get amped up, and then you can close her based off that, and once you close her then you can restart the relationship. So that's the basic method that I talk about in Wonder, like how to get your girlfriend back.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: It does require self control.

[Angel Donovan]: It’s a lot of emotional self-control.

[Mehow]: It does require like really good pickup skills, basically. It’s not an easy thing to do by any means.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Well, I guess most guys are emotional and, you know, if you’re going to stay friends with her and have her on your social circle potentially with other guys around you, I think the biggest challenge for guys is not to get emotional about that and start showing it, right?

[Mehow]: Yeah, absolutely. Right. No matter how much it hurts, you have to be this Hindu cow. But here’s the thing. The thing that happens—I mean you should be practicing all this stuff anyway. So I said it’s extremely difficult, well, it is for a guy that just broke up with his or just got dumped and he's starting to pick up a week later, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Because basically what usually happens—this is from years of experience of this—guys start off like, “I want to get that girl back.” Then, if they really practice the methods, what ends up happening is they extremely quickly realize that she wasn't the one and they’re like picking up other girls, and they start going on a bunch of dates with a bunch of different girls and they find their next girl, which is really the appropriate method, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Me giving you a system called the Wonder system that's really good at getting one girl doesn’t really make you more likely at finding her, right? Like you still have to date multiple girls. So, I mean, that's in the system too. It’s like you have to go out with multiple girls, and real fate sort of happens when you put the work in. Like a lot of guys, well, most men in the world today, because they’re in place of scarcity, because they can’t get what they want by pressing a button essentially and doing all the work. They can’t get what they want, so then the first girl they meet or the second girl they meet or the only hot one or whatever, if there's anything special about her they start to rationalize that into, “She’s the one.”

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Mehow]: That's why we have a 50% divorce rate. Among other reasons for the divorce rate, that's probably the biggest one, male's settling without thinking about it.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So, I mean, let's talk about keeping her because I think part of the problem, what you’re talking about—I’ve seen this a lot—is someone starts studying some dating advice and stuff and, like you say, the next girl they find or the second girl they hook up with and they become girlfriend-boyfriend again, and he hasn’t really had time to learn from experience those skills, as you’re saying, like pickup artist skills or dating skills, whatever you want to call them. And so what you’re suggesting is that there should be a period of dating multiple women.

[Mehow]: Yeah. It’s mandatory, right? You’re exactly right. I mean, if a dude just gets in a relationship right away and then he's struggling how to keep the girl in the relationship and that's his third relationship, I mean it’s pretty much a no-win situation because he can’t learn what he needs to learn to keep her in the relationship. It’s basically impossible, because the way you keep girls… I mean, let's talk about how to keep girls, right, and how do you actually…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: My thing that I’m sort of very proud of since I’d learned this thing is that—and I haven’t released the method, I haven’t like written a book about it, although it’s definitely coming, like I’m definitely going to do a relationship product, because the game changes in a relationship, and if you’re a really good sort of player at the pickup side, you can pretty much figure it out, but unless you have a lot of experience, it’s hard for a guy to just figure out. Like there's definitely advice that I need to give to people on that topic.

But just to sort of start with the basics, in a relationship, it’s all about sort of being able to work out conflict and sort of pickup appropriate way, that's one thing that's big and it’s a big difference from what people conventionally do. Because what guys conventionally do is like she misbehaves, they get upset, they start talking to her about it…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: …and then it all goes south. Whereas the appropriate way to handle bad behavior from a girl is, even if you’re in a relationship, because remember, she’s just being emotional, right? Like no matter what you say at that point, you know, with, “Hey, this is inappropriate,” she’s probably not going to go your way. She’s probably not going to be cool with this thing that's happening. So what you do is you handle it in a pickup perspective, and then when she’s calmed down you later go back and address it, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Totally. Totally.

[Mehow]: So essentially like…

[Angel Donovan]: And like just an interesting point here, how long do you find it takes someone to calm down and get back into the state where you should address it in…?

[Mehow]: I mean, it could be 10 minutes later, but usually I like the next day, [laughs] right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. I think, like in my experience, it depends on the girl as well, like some girls it can take a day, and then other girls it can be an hour, and some girls it really always has to be a day because they get very fired up and…

[Mehow]: Is that your experience?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: Exactly, right? I mean, you just calibrate the girl. I mean, ultimately, what you want to do is you want to, when she’s into you again and not pissed off, that's when is the best time to effect change. And after that, once you set the rules and she starts to misbehave again, you’ll be like, “Baby, we talked about this.”

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Right? And so now you have like a reference point in her past that you can use to control the behavior in the now, but the first time you have a blowup you need to deal with it.

[Angel Donovan]: Sorry.

[Mehow]: …like the way a therapist would tell you to handle it, which is talk it out, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Mehow]: Like, you know, the advice is just they have a big conversation about it, which oftentimes will just result in an even bigger blowup that's really unnecessary.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: Right?

[Angel Donovan]: Totally.

[Mehow]: So that's the jam right there, right? It’s like basically you want to… That's one example of what to do in relationships that's different from conventional wisdom.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. Alright, seeing as we’re on the topic of talking about dating multiple girls, so you’re saying like it’s important to date multiple girls even if you’re looking for a girlfriend, which is probably most guys’ situation, because you’re going to learn from experience things that are necessary in a relationship to keep the girl. So there's basically, you know, if you see your wonder girl and you haven’t got the experience, in a way there's like no point in getting her if you can’t keep her, right?

[Mehow]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: If she’s really that important to you.

[Mehow]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: So, the NSA system was the one you put out more recently and that's more focused on the aspect of maintaining multiple-girl relationships.

[Mehow]: Right. It’s basically how to maintain relationships with multiple girls that are sleeping with you and they know you’re dating other people and they’re not serious, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. And today that's pretty normal like in many… Like depending on where you live and stuff, but it’s become more culturally acceptable, socially acceptable, so.

[Mehow]: But the thing that I do in NSA, because it’s true that as culture advances the casual hookup is becoming more normal because it’s more aligned with human nature, like it’s just the way we biologically are, the truth, particularly for men. It’s not so aligned with human nature for women. Women want to walk the guy down. So the thing that the NSA system goes into over top of just getting the girl and dating, because I remember it’s like dating multiple women, you have to do, whether you’re looking at Wonder system or NSA system, right? It’s in both. The thing that NSA does that Wonder doesn’t is it goes into how to have multiple women at once and have them for long periods of time without losing them, which is a big challenge because ultimately they all want to walk you down at some level, and there are basically just rules and techniques I give you to basically extend the multiple relationships as long as possible. And the reason for that is simple. It’s just efficiency, right? It’s like if you don’t lose your sets, then you don’t have to pick up anywhere near as much and you have way more control. And the other cool thing about it is you can at any point decide to take a girl that's, you know, in a multiple girlfriend situation for say three months and turn her into a One(der) or like an exclusive girlfriend.

[Angel Donovan]: So that's like a trial period, right?

[Mehow]: Right. It’s basically…

[Angel Donovan]: I mean, I’d suggest…

[Mehow]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: I mean, I think it’s becoming more popular, but I think it’s the appropriate… Everyone should be doing that, right? Find out who she really is and don’t get too stuck into her immediately. Like in NSA you talk a bit about the difficulty of backing out. If you go straight into a relationship with a girl, it’s harder to back out. [Mehow]: Oh yeah, and then it’s impossible to back out, like if you go in the boyfriend frame, and then you’re kind of stuck there, and then when you try to back out you usually lose the set. That's just kind of like universal truth.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: I’ve never found a real sort of solution for that. It’s like if she’s really into you and she’s spending all this time with you and she’s like, “Baby, I want to see other people,” you’re done, right? So the key, and guys make this mistake all the time, is they’ll have that one girl and they unknowingly will let her develop a relationship frame, sorry, an exclusive relationship frame around the relationship.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Right? So what you want to do is avoid that, because if you don’t avoid that you’re kind of done. There's really no fixing it, right? It’s like basically impossible. Like if you’re seeing one woman and then you start seeing multiple women and you didn’t set up that frame early, then it’s just not going to happen.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. So what’s one way, you know, when you first start seeing a girl, is there… I guess most guys are going to think they have to have a talk, a sit-down talk about it, but so what is the first thing you should do to make sure she doesn’t start getting into the girlfriend mode?

[Mehow]: Well, the first thing I do just before I sleep with her, I say, “I’m not boyfriend material.”

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: And that's the verbal. And then after that you get into like the things that you’re doing to sort of, you know, you don’t have her over three nights a week. Have her over one night a week. When she starts to bring up a certain like hey-I-want-to-be-your-girlfriend conversation, I’ve got specific routines for that. It’s about an hour of material, like different a selection of things that you need to do to set the frame up.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. And are there girls who, you know, when you say, “I’m not boyfriend material,” are there girls that will just, you know, the binary, like oh, zero, like, “I’m not going to do anything with this guy?” Because I’m sure that's a fear that a lot of guys are going to have, is like if I say in some way that I’m not boyfriend material, that I can’t be her boyfriend, then she’s not going to be interested in me and I’m going to lose her.

[Mehow]: Yeah. So, I mean, basically you’re only going to make it that up front and that obvious when really she is just hookup. But to be fair, I’ve never lost a set when I’ve said that.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Like I’ve never… Because usually you say it way later, like you just have to say it before you insert slot A into tab B, right? So if you’re already that far along, generally, I mean she’s already so into you and so invested that you generally won’t lose the set, although I’m sure it’s possible and I’m sure it’s happened. It’s happened to me, is what I’m saying.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: It’s like for a lot of girls, I mean, honestly, like we’re out here doing a TV show, we’re doing the residential, like everything’s going amazing, you know, like this show is going to be probably… I mean, I can’t wait to talk about the content, but it’s like we put together the first pilot and we watched it, and we’re just like, “Yeah, there's nothing like this on television. People are going to freak out. It’s going to be awesome.”

But like as I’m here, like I’m actively actually looking for a girlfriend, right? I’m going through the process. So a lot of girls are boyfriend material, and then what happens is a really easy way to sort of push back on the set that you didn’t explicitly disqualify with “I’m not boyfriend material” is just when she starts to behave badly you just see her less. At that point she becomes casual in that way, right?

[Angel Donovan]: It’s like de facto casual.

[Mehow]: Right, like… Yeah, exactly. It’s like de facto… Like if she starts to behave badly, you’re just going to see her less, therefore now she can’t expect to be the girlfriend, right? [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mehow]: She’s not going to be like, “Yeah, we should get together and be permanent when we’re fighting all the time,” right? [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah. And interestingly, like if you have that frame, if you’re seeing her once a week, she’s… Because one of the things I think is important is with her friends, what she tells her friends, right? If you’re seeing her once per week, she’s not going to probably take the risk of telling her friends that you’re a serious boyfriend or there's something serious, because that's the kind of thing that can start causing drama and problems for you later, because now she’s upset because she’s lost face with her friends and so on, it gets more complicated, would you say?

[Mehow]: Yeah, absolutely. Right. So, I mean, girls, if you’re the casual, she’ll introduce you as the friend, she’ll see you once a week, she won’t talk much about you.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So that’s typical.

[Mehow]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Should you call her a friend like when you introduce her to people?

[Mehow]: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's one of the things. That's absolutely one of the things. If you introduce a girl as your girlfriend, like you make that mistake once, then you’re like, oh, you’re already on the dark path…

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mehow]: …that not even her bad behavior can get you out of, right? Because it’s like pretty much that you’re going on a path of boy-girl and then she behaves badly, then she expects you to work it out with her, right? Whereas if you’re casual and she behaves badly and you don’t see her, she doesn’t expect that to get worked out, she just expects to be seeing you once a week.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Cool. Alright, so I just wanted to go back to something else, link it to something else we were saying before, which was you brought up a few times suspending them between hope and doubt.

[Mehow]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: Is that connected with this “I’m not boyfriend material” thing?

[Mehow]: Yes. They go together, but they don’t… They’re separate concepts that just happen to dovetail, right? They’re not like the same thing. Suspending between hope and doubt you do in every pickup. When you say, “I’m not boyfriend material,” you happen to keep the hope and doubt suspended, but you’re also sending a frame for what’s going to happen with the relationship.

[Angel Donovan]: I guess to be clear what I’m saying is that, is it better to keep it a little bit uncertain in some respects? I mean, if you’re jerking around and you’re saying, “I’m not boyfriend material,” it’s not like saying, “Look, I cannot be your boyfriend. I don’t do that,” right? You know what I mean? Like a direct conversation, which I’ve seen some people do. They say, “Look, I can’t be your…” Actually, one of my buddies says this. So, you know, “I can’t be your boyfriend,” and so the girl will get all upset and…

[Mehow]: Yeah, there is definitely a little more hope in “I’m not boyfriend material,” right? Like if you straight up tell a girl, “Look, there is no way we can be boy-girl ever, period, not going to happen,” that's not the intention and it’s not what I’m saying.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mehow]: Because ultimately, if she really blows you away, you may end up with her. Like I can be honest and say almost all the women I sleep with, at some level they are girlfriend material. It’s just sometimes it’s a 1% chance and sometimes it’s 50, right? So I kind of calibrate what I say to her to that, but ultimately it’s not your job to sit there and be like, “Alright, well, I need to figure out exactly where she’s at so she doesn’t get hurt later.” That’s not your job. Like as a free human being, it’s your job to be fundamentally more or less honest and let her decide, right? When you say you’re not boyfriend material, to me that's sufficient, right? I won’t go more into it. Then she’s like, “What do you mean? What do you mean?” I’ll be like, “Well, you know, over time I haven’t had a lot of great relationships, but I have had a few.” I’ll be honest with her, right? And it’s up to her to decide if she wants to read the manual for how to pick pickup artists up and read that and make me her boyfriend, right? [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Well, and the other thing is like sex is, you know, having sex, right, because hooking up and having sex, is one step towards learning more about them and like no one should… It’s probably not a good idea to start a relationship or think you’re having a relationship before that's happened, because that's one aspect of learning about each other and building the relationship. So the fact that you’re framing that you’re not boyfriend material before hooking up is probably setting a more realistic expectation in some way.

[Mehow]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: Because, I mean, at least it’s like suspending the hope if she’s got kind of unrealistic views on that.

[Mehow]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. This has been a great talk. It was kind of funny and cool to have you doing a live phone call on the podcast too, so thanks for that. And by the way, you just said something about the TV show. I didn’t really know like what that was about. Have you got some TV show coming up?

[Mehow]: Oh, yeah, yeah. We’re getting produced by the True Life people from MTV and…

[Angel Donovan]: What are you doing, live infield stuff or…?

[Mehow]: Well, yeah, that, but it’s mostly focused around psych. It’s about pickup without like all the technical stuff. It’s about the power that students get and people that do this get. Basically, I mean, when you get the ability to make everybody like you in a matter of a minute or two, you generate a lot of natural drama and a lot of just crazy situations, and ethical questions and just a lot of fun, and that's basically what the show is about. It’s not a contest show. It’s not a show where like people are getting eliminated. People are learning but we’re not really showing the learning. It’s like we’re basically casting pickup in the light that it should be casted in, which is it’s an awesome magical thing that does magical stuff.

[Angel Donovan]: Is it like a documentary? It sounds more like a documentary than a… You know, it’s not a reality TV show like you’re saying.

[Mehow]: No, I mean, I really can’t…

[Angel Donovan]: ok.

[Mehow]: If you take like the best shows on TV, like if you mix the Kardashians and the pickup artists and Jersey Shore, you basically get this, kind of, right? And that's really the most I can say at this point.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. And when’s that due, like what’s the airing date?

[Mehow]: I don’t know exactly when it’s coming out and what channel it’s coming out, like we’re basically shooting here for another two months in the Hollywood Hills…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mehow]: You know, with me and the staff and some of the students that want to sign releases and a lot of girls. It’s just… I really hope to… There's definitely some just like fun stuff, at the same time I’m hoping it’ll really start to transform the way pickup’s viewed because we’re not sticking like this, oh-you-say-this-and-she’ll-be-into-you-type shit in the audience’s face, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right, right.

[Mehow]: What we’re doing is like showing the beauty and the art of it. It’s like a show about magic where you never explain how the magic was accomplished. And then if you think about all the magic shows out there, that's exactly what they do. Like Criss Angel ain't on TV explaining how he made like the card disappear, right? And that's basically what we’re doing here for pickup.

[Angel Donovan]: That sounds great. I really hope it has that kind of impact that would be great for everyone involved.

[Mehow]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: People studying it, people learning about it and learning more about life. It’d be great. Okay. Alright, well, good luck with that. I hope it goes really well. I look forward to seeing it.

[Mehow]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Thanks for the call and I’ll be in touch with you, man.

[Mehow]: Thanks, Angel. Great call. Thanks.