#87 Navigating the World of BDSM with Lee Harrington

[Angel Donovan]: Lee, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

[Lee Harrington]: Happy to be here.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah great. So, we haven't ever talked about this topic before so, I'm pretty excited about it. It's a bit more of a niche topic but obviously, you've got a book out there which is doing really well and a lot of people really appreciate it. So, when I heard about that, I wanted to get you on the show.

[Lee Harrington]: I'm excited to be here because, even though people think that kinky sex and BDSM is a niche topic, the reality is a lot of people are engaging in things that get labeled as kinky in their day-to-day sex lives but don't think about it that way. The number of men I know who like a little bit of ass slapping or hair pulling in their sex life is pretty phenomenally large of a category. They just don't think about it as kinky sex nor should they need to but, I think it's something that we can open a dialogue around and get more passionate and involved with if we want to.

[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely, absolutely. Before we get into the main topic today, let's just understand where you're coming from. Currently, what kind of relationship are you in and where are you at in your own life whereas dating, sex and relationships?

[Lee Harrington]: I'm in a fantastic monogamous relationship with a wonderful woman who I've loved for a number of years. We live together in a house up in Anchorage Alaska with our two big fluffy dogs. In the past, I've had relationships with a variety of people of all genders but, I've made a really wonderful decision to be with her and we are incredibly happy.

[Angel Donovan]: That's great to hear. How old are you?

[Lee Harrington]: I'm 35 years old though, people who meet me sometimes they pinpoint me all across the age range. I get carded by people and some assume I'm 50. So, people never know where to put me.

[Angel Donovan]: It's pretty cool when they assume you're much younger. I think everyone appreciates that...

[Lee Harrington]: It's kind of fun.

[Angel Donovan]: ...even if they're lying.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So, in terms of the whole BDSM/kink area, how did you get into it? What kind of sparked your interest in this area?

[Lee Harrington]: It's one of those funny little things but, when I was 7 years old, I found my father's porn collection and it had lots of pictures of women in thigh-high PVC boots that we really sexy. There was a story in there that really caught my attention about somebody who had a number of friends that they were doing stuff with.

I said, "Oh, when I grow up, I want friends who want me to be happy" because, these were friends helping this girl make her dreams come true, this 18 year old girl. I liked that idea of friends who would make friends happy and so, for me, the kinky sex didn't come first. What came first was that idea of friends who helped friends. So, the kinky sex community drew me first and then the actually behaviors were secondary to me.

[Angel Donovan]: So, was that kind of online? You start exploring the online forums and stuff and learning about it or how did that work?

[Lee Harrington]: When I first started getting engaged, it was the mid-90s and that idea of exploring online, all we had was bulletin board systems and that wasn't quite where I was coming from. Instead, it was meeting people who through luck of the draw happened to be in what is referred as the "leather community" which is a subset of that umbrella of kink.

So, kink is this term that is everything from BDSM, which is bondage and discipline, sadism and masochism and then the Ds is dominance and submission but, it's more than that. It's also people who have like fetish clothing or cross-dressing, people who like exhibitionism or watching people. It's a broad category of all kinds of stuff outside the norm but, leather is about not just leather clothing but, it's people who believe in engaging with others in honorable and hot and sexy way from a place of a specific culture that started out in the leather bars.

I happen to have my first person that I dated be part of that community and when I told them about this magazine I had read when I was young, they said, "Oh, I have some people you should meet." So, that's how I first got engage back in 1995 with someone.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, great.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: I guess we should provide an overview because, you've got a lot to describe. So, at the highest level, it's kink. Right? We put everything else under the umbrella of kink.

[Lee Harrington]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: And then you said this BDSM which is one subset and leather. These don't connect. These are kind of separate categories or subcultures.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah, they are and there are people that I've met who in kink, like into the kinky stuff, all they're interested in...my girlfriend is like this actually. Her main kink is perfectly matching lingerie, panty hose or stockings, underwear, huge high heel collection and she feels so sexy getting to go out to parties where she's able to wander around in nothing but her lingerie and beautiful jewelry and have people ogle her but, that is so sexy to her and it turns her on to then go home and to have us have great sex. I love that that's what's she really, really into.

While one of my main things is bondage which is restraining someone or decorating with rope or leather or chain and having them either pull on the ropes or having somebody tied down to a bed when we're having sex. That's what's really hot to me. So, you'll have people who say, "I'm kinky," but you don't know what that means until you ask them.

[Angel Donovan]: So, it's pretty specific to each person, I guess you're saying. Like your girlfriend's a real individual, she's unique, it's not like this is a subculture of lingerie with jewelry or is there?

[Lee Harrington]: It would surprise you. It would really surprise you. For example, right now in Chicago, every year there is conference just for people who like rope bondage, 1300 people in Chicago who are into nothing but rope bondage. There's another event that happens that is just for men who like wearing women's clothing. There's another event that's just for people who like wearing leather. There's another event out there just for people who like doing role playing character in the bedroom.

There's all kinds of groups just for different subsections as well as event and coffees and get-togethers. There are communities for broad categories or little things and some people I know, love it all, which are just like, "What I want is to be with you as a person. I'll play anything if it's with you."

There's other people who are like, "No, I'm really into this one thing and I want to find a girl who's into that too so, we can both enjoy that thing together. It's like guys I know who love hockey and want to find a girlfriend who likes hockey too so that can both go watch the hockey games. I know people who do the same thing who are like, "I want a girl who love wearing thigh high PVC boots because, I love thigh high PVC boots and I don't want her to do it just to put up with me. I want her to like it too."

[Angel Donovan]: This seems like obviously is becoming something that is a little bit more mainstream since we had the whole 50 Shades come out. How do you see it? How is it relevant to...we've got a pretty broad audience. You could call it a mainstream audience. How would you say that this topic is relevant to them?

[Lee Harrington]: I think how kink is relevant to everyone is that kinky sex communities and kinky sex argues that the main thing that matters is consent, is everyone who is engaging in this sex, agreeing and not just putting up with it but happy to do it on some level. Either they're happy to do it because it makes their partner happy or more than that, they're happy to do it because it makes them happy. Is everybody consenting this this?

So, to consent to something, you need to make sure that everybody knows what they're agreeing to, that's what makes it relevant. With 50 Shades of Grey, it made concepts like bondage or using ice cubes on someone's body or blindfolds an easy conversation point.

[Angel Donovan]: That's really very basic stuff. I mean, I feel like, who hasn't done that?

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah, what happens is those books that I found was really interesting was that it puts it in a framework of Dominance and submission. Dominant being somebody who takes control for the length of that scene or scenario or bedroom engagement, for the length of that time period says, "I am going to be dominant over what we do."

Submissive is somebody who says, "I agree to have you be the dominant partner in this. I want to submit or surrender to what you're going to do to me." In the books, they said this is for the entirety of their relationship but, some people have fun just in their bedroom. So, that's where it was different than people going, "Oh, let's play with a blindfold or play with an ice cube."

It added that layer or power and control which is tricky though because, it becomes a fine line with abuse. That can be really confusing to some guys of being like, "Okay, how do I know whether my girlfriend really wants to be submissive or whether I'm now being a bad guy and I'm going to find out later that she actually didn't want this."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I can give a personal example of that. I had a relationship with a girl who loved me to be dominant and she was the subordinate and we had relatively aggressive sex. Then a couple of relationships afterwards, I was with another girl and I mistook something she did in bed (she slapped me) for that kind of behavior that I was used to. So, I just got into my role from the last relationship and she started crying because, it wasn't okay and we had to stop and talk about it and everything.

So, it was like an assumption that I made about how she was. Obviously, it was early on in the relationship, I didn't really understand what her type was and everything and she's really is at the other end of very emotional kind of intimate side rather than into that. As you brought up earlier, the conversation and communication seems to be and the consensus is a key part of this.

[Lee Harrington]: Oh and it was mind blowing to me when I first got into being with someone because, my first person I was with who was into this kinky stuff didn't actually have the notion of consent. It was like, "If you're buckled in, you're buckled in to do this thing with me," and I was one the submissive side. I was surrendering because I was learning and I went, "Okay, I want to experience this stuff" and I handed myself over.

So, it was from a different framework but, when I came over and started doing stuff on the dominant side, I had somebody that looked at me and said, "No, I want us to sit down and talk about what we're both into." It was mind blowing to me because, I came from a framework where no, you start dating someone and you don't know what they're into and you just kind of wing it. You just know that you are both really into going out to movies and you both share movies.

But, to have somebody sit down and say, "Well, what you do like in the bedroom?" was mind blowing to me because, that's why it's relevant. I was game to sit down and they were game to sit down and said, "Oh, do you like blow jobs? What do you like about blow jobs?" My brain was blown because, I'd never had those words out loud.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Lee Harrington]: When, they asked me I was like, "What do I like about them? Umm, umm. Well, what kind of blow job do I like? Well, umm, I guess I like it with a little bit more teeth because, when people are..." I'd never verbalized that and to realize, "Oh wait, girls who are little too like soft and kissy weren't so hot to me." Now suddenly, in the bedroom when I'm with a woman I can say, "Oh can you be just a little more firmer there? Now, that's really hot."

Suddenly, I was empowered to do something that got me to have better sex and it carried over to the rest of my dating life because, I now had the power to say not just, "Here's what I like" but, "What do you like? Let's both win in this relationship. How do we both get our, not just our needs, but our hotness and desires met?"

[Angel Donovan]: This is really interesting because, I often find what happens in life, not just in dating, sex and relationships that if you take something to an extreme, you often learn skill sets which are really applicable to the norm. So, in this situation, we're going to do the BDSM and the kink and obviously, people are at different extremes compared to the norm but because of that, you are forced to learn skills and communication and things like this like on how to navigate that and make sure it's okay for both partners and how to basically learn about each other and learn about where the boundaries are.

Of course, this is something we really need in all relationships but, we don't do it enough. So, it strikes me as like just something interesting. If someone is opening up sexually is he in that trying to learn about their sexuality, some time spent in the BDSM community or around these types of relationships might be useful and very fruitful for their developing and improving their relationships after that even if it's not their thing, they decide it's not their thing after all.

[Lee Harrington]: There's actually...one of the things I love about the fact that there are communities out there because...If you just want to enjoy some spanking in the bedroom and maybe grab a pair of leather-wrist-cuffs to shackle someone to a bed...and I say leather because, handcuffs or cable ties can actually cut in and injure someone pretty easy. surprisingly easily actually, I've had injuries.

If you just want to buy some stuff and have fun at home, that's cool but, what I love about finding communities like this is you can go to a conference (and it might sound so nerdy and it is) is you can go to a conference and go to classes on topics that you're interested in. Like, "I want to learn how to spank someone safely. How do I do it without hitting someone's tail bone? How do I it?"

[Angel Donovan]: I think it's great.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah, you could go to some kinky classes with your sweetie or get ideas for your future sweeties. Then at night, they've got these dungeons, which sound scary but most often times, it's just a couple of pieces of sexy equipment and a big open space and people having fun.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay so, is this a communal area where people go? It's like a service you pay for?

[Lee Harrington]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: So basically, a room full of equipment that many people can use?

[Lee Harrington]: It's a room full of equipment and usually a food area and beverage area over to the side because, if you've been having some sweaty fun, you want some beverages afterwards. A little bit of stuff on the side, a social area and you can stand around and watch what's happening and I love watching those things respectfully, right? You're not staring at them. You're just kind of viewing from a distance. I'm trying to think of an example...like going to an art gallery but, far more interesting. You get to get ideas.

I remember going to a play space like this. I love that term play space because, you're seeing adults play in their own adventurous ways. I remember watching a couple who were just so sweet with each other. At first it looked really extreme to me because, I'd walked into this space, it was my very first time and I was with somebody who I was dating at the time so, I had somebody's hand to hold.

I walked in surrounded by strangers and I walked downstairs where the dungeon was and there was this guy who had a woman tied up in these really fancy ropes and suspended her from the ceiling. I found out later he had been studying for years. He knew exactly what he was doing. He wasn't endangering anyone because, when I see people who are like, "Oh, I saw it once on the internet..." You're risking someone's health there. He had her up in the air and it looked really scary.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Lee Harrington]: But then, as I was watching, I saw him barely touch her face and brush his fingers through her hair and then reach down and kiss her and then touch her lower body and it was really sweet and really passionately sexy and I went, "Okay, I get it." Suddenly, I had an empathy for a different type of sexuality than what I had played with already and I've eventually over the years gotten into that kind of stuff but, even if I hadn't...because, I've seen other things where I'm just like, "You know what? Good for them. Not my thing."

It's kind of like there's certain porn that I've watched over the years where I'm like, "I'll pass. Interesting but, no," but, it these spaces and some of them are sexy. Some of these spaces you have to find friends who know friends, right? You get vetted into them. It's just kind of like certain parties right? You only go to that college or you only get invited to that one event if you've known somebody for a long time. It's your best friend's party. Those things happen.

[Angel Donovan]: Is that the rule for dungeons in general because, it strikes me that these...you're talking about these public dungeons, right? Are there private dungeons also that people would rent, or a couple would rent for a while just for themselves?

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah, there are. There's a lot of variety out there. There's one's where if you pay for your yearly membership or your weekend pass or even your one-night space...I live in Anchorage, Alaska and we have a space here where you can come to a party for one night and you pay $30 to get in for the night and there's a food and snack area and there is these play spaces and social areas and an art gallery. Right and that's pretty cool?

[Angel Donovan]: That's a public one and that's not a lot of money.

[Lee Harrington]: No it's not, $30 per person. You can get in. You have a fun time and as long as you're respectful, they give you a little tour, you sign a liability waiver at the beginning which basically says, "If you hurt yourself, it's not our fault. We'll give you a tour but, don't do anything stupid. Don't hurt yourself or others," which makes sense right?

You're doing a sport, right? Think of it as if you're going to be going to a gym, you have to sign a liability waiver because, you're doing something with your bodies and it's not the gym's fault if you pull a muscle. It just isn't. So, that's how I think of it. It's just like going to the gym. So, you have to stretch, you have to warm up if you're going to do something interesting. It's why I love going dancing before I have hot sex at home, it gets your body stretched and warmed up, same idea. So, you go into these spaces, you pay your entry fee, you have fun.

There's others...there's a space in Seattle where you have to get a full tour and do an introductory class to understand what's even going to happen there before you can buy a yearly membership.

[Angel Donovan]: Then you have to buy a yearly membership so, it's a big commitment. So that's probably for more experienced people.

[Lee Harrington]: Yes and no. That's a space called The Seattle Sex Positive Community Center and what I love about their space is they have a weekly dance night. So, you could come and just be on their dance floor with great djs every Thursday night but, if you want to get topless, you can. So, how many dance clubs can you go to where you can get down to technically nothing and dance naked if you want to or just show up in your sexy outfit and dance.

So, there are people who buy their memberships there just to go to the dance floor. There are other people who go so they can go to a swinger party, one that's focused on sex and there are other people who have sex with a number of different people or sex with your single partner but other people can watch you so, people who like to show off.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, let's clarify one thing like...

[Lee Harrington]: Please I know because, it's a lot of information. There's so many types out there, so many types.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right so, in the dungeons, is there sex going on as well for some people or is it depend on the dungeon or is it style of BDSM which actually doesn't involve the actual sexual act itself?

[Lee Harrington]: Different parties are different. Some places are based on the laws of the area. So for example, in Columbus, Ohio of all places, it's perfectly legal to have sex in your dungeons because the health commissioners have come through, made those decisions, everybody knows what's going on, nobody cares. For other spaces, the only place available to play is in the back of a local bar and you can't have sex at a bar. That's illegal. So, it really depends on what space you're in and who's running the space.

I know some people who when they're playing at home, they want their spanking to be spanking time and their sex to be sex time because, it's different parts of their brain for them. I know other people who want their spanking to lead immediately into sexy time. I know some people who in the middle of their sex, want to include some spanking while they're having sex. So, it really depends on who you're with, what venue you're in and how the two of you or the entire community engage with each other. Does that make sense because, it's a lot of moving parts?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it does. I mean, it sounds pretty complicated so, for someone at home who is like, "It sounds a little bit interesting." Who do you think this is interesting for to start exploring it a little bit? Who would it make most interesting? Are there any signs? Maybe you've seen a lot kind of like beginners and people who disappear, people who tend to stay and explore it further. Are there any signs it's something that's going to be a part of you or something interesting to you?

[Lee Harrington]: Absolutely, some of the trends I see are people who are creative. I find that artists or people who like to go on different types of hikes or watch lots of different types of movies like having a variety of types.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, variety?

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, if you just like a variety of things?

[Lee Harrington]: Absolutely, so maybe this week you're going to want to enjoy feeding your lover a strawberry. Next week, you'll want to cover them with strawberries. The week after that, you don't want any strawberries at all. This could be a fun thing to do. It's more variety.

Another one I see is a lot of people who enjoy extreme sports or physical activities. So, people who love the adrenaline rush of going sky diving or adventure backpacking or if you're not on the physical side, people who love to going to sports gaming getting their heart racing. Any of those exciting things, this is a thrill-seeking opportunity.

So, I have a friend of mine who is a big NASCAR guy and he loves being dominant over this pair of women that he knows who love getting to have their little bit of their bi-sexuality with each other but he gets to have that control and that adrenaline of controlling them. I'm like, "Okay, that's fun." He gets to engage that other than in a NASCAR kind of way, that adrenaline.

I know a lot of guys who enjoy sensation, physical sensation. So, if you love going and being covered in sweat after a workout and then going out into the cold air, you might be somebody who enjoys receiving physical sensation and this is another way to get that. I know other people who maybe have some physical challenges, guys who are in wheelchairs or who have other sorts of mobility or whatever issues who love having an opportunity to have sex that isn't as physical because they get to try either Dominance and submission or that they get to be voyeurs and have that be arousing for them with people who love being exhibitionists consensually.

[Angel Donovan]: That's a really great overview. Thank you very much for that because, I think that should provide a lot of clarity to people at home. You really explained it really well. I understand why your books are well recommended.

[Lee Harrington]: What I loved about writing that book is that even though I wrote it a lot from being more of a dominant male perspective, I've played all over the place but, my co-author is a submissive woman. So, it was really important for us that you get to see both viewpoints in one book and for guys who are dating at home, we don't always get to see what it's like to be in the other brain.

It's one of the really neat things I learned about negotiating for sex whether you're doing it in these communities or whether you're doing it at home, that idea of sitting down and saying authentically, "What's hot for you? What would be fun for you What have you never tried that you've always wanted to?"

[Angel Donovan]: So, take a step back in a new relationship, how would you bring this up? So, it will make it really practical for someone if this is something they want to do when they get into a relationship. How would you say, what are the steps, when to do it, what to start the conversation with, these kind of practical details?

[Lee Harrington]: Couple of different options, some people like doing it through the "see what they're reaction is" approach which is if you're both into watching erotica to get a kind of spicy porn, right, like a piece of porn that has somebody cuffed to a bed, start on the lower level or the more introductory level, I should say. Not lower because, that's neither better nor worse. It's another kind of hot play. See what people's reactions are. I know some people who rented the copy of the movie The Secretary and see what they got turned on by.

[Angel Donovan]: Oh, I remember that film. What's the name of the guy in the movie?

[Lee Harrington]: It's Maggie Gyllenhaal, I remember her.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Lee Harrington]: I'm sorry.

[Angel Donovan]: The guy's pretty famous too. I think he's in the...

[Lee Harrington]: He's now starring in The Black List.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, there you go. Anyway, we'll put it in the show notes.

[Lee Harrington]: Love it but, they rented the movie The Secretary and there's a scene where she incorrectly types up something and the lead male ends up circling all the errors and then spanking her for each error. Apparently, his girlfriend just started tightening up and leaning into him and he went, "Oh, that's information." So, that was his approach.

[Angel Donovan]: That's a nice thoughtful thing, specifically renting movies which have...there are quite a few movies like that. I think The Secretary is a very specific example. It's probably one of the more extreme ones that are main stream.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah, exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: But, there's probably others which would be good choices too.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah, so movies are a fun one with an awareness that your sweetie might say, "Oh my god, that's so gross." To ask her what she found gross, instead of assuming it's the whole movie because, what she might have found gross was the idea that everybody else was mean to that couple. You don't know what she means until you ask her and you won't know what she finds hot unless you ask her.

Another trick that I love when I'm early on dating people was, "What was the funniest type of hot sex you ever had or what was the craziest sex you ever had?" Have one of those truth or dare nights and say, "Okay, what did you like? What did you have fun with" and suddenly, you get a picture of...even it's not what you consider kinky, you get to find out what your partner is into and honestly listen to it and say, "Oh, what really turned her on was the fact that they made out in the back of a car?"

You now know that that fear of that kind of sex in public, possibility of getting caught whatever is hot. You can know go maybe out on a date to be those last people at the corn maze and making out in a corner at the corn maze and get that same thrill. That's still a little kinky, that's a little spicy. So, you get to find out. So, those are the two of the tricks that I love starting with.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, great some good examples there. Basically, you definitely have to start with building some trust and communication.

[Lee Harrington]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: We've had this a lot in the past like not being judgmental, these kind of things. Another thing that I've used in the past, you let me know what you think of this is after having sex for the first or second time is that start some kind of discussion afterwards because, you're intimate, you're relaxed because you've kind of hit the anxiety of having sex for the first time and the second time is kind of over and you feel closer. So, it's kind of a safer environment. You're holding each other or whatever to talk about some things and test the boundaries a little bit.

[Lee Harrington]: In part of that, I love that trick, I think that's a great thing to recommend. I encourage for people to be careful of the language they use because, once we've just had sex, I find and there's studies on the notion of physical activity and altered states of consciousness. Because, when you're at the end of a really hard workout at the gym, that's the moment when you're...at the very end of it when your coach comes over and says, "Okay, next time we're going to work on this and we're going to push to this," because it hits the back of your brain in a way that wouldn't happen at the beginning of the session when all those chemicals aren't pushing in your brain.

Sex does the same thing. So, you've got to be careful because, you're in this receptive state. So, I use questions like, "What was the hottest thing for you? How can we make it even hotter," instead of saying, "What could I do better?" which in some ways encourages people to say, "You didn't do this very well" and our brain records the way we fucked up.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it's a difference between taking a positive versus a negative approach to it.

[Lee Harrington]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: "What did I do wrong?" it's never a good idea to start a conversation like that.

[Lee Harrington]: No and so what I love is, "What can we do hotter? What was hot for you? What did you really like?" and using those kind of words so that we can get actually what we're looking for because, what we want to know is, “How do we do it better? How can we have even more fun? What would you want to try next time?"

[Angel Donovan]: Another approach I've used, see what you think of this, just bouncing ideas off of you here, I'll just talk about past experiences in a very open manner. It depends, some girls I've been with aren't comfortable with talking about exes and things like that but, I like to establish that it's okay so, test the boundaries of that to start with and hopefully, develop that kind of conversation. Then, just tell them about past experiences, just talk about ourselves. "It was this time, it was kind of a crazy because of blah, blah, blah" whatever and see how they react to that.

Often I find that they'll start to open up and talk about their experiences because, you've kind of let down this vulnerability and you're talking about this stuff that's sensitive to you. I can't remember any time that having gone wrong actually. What do you think of that?

[Lee Harrington]: It's interesting because, I have had that go wrong once and it was because, it was a fresh breakup for them and I knew that they had an ex but, I didn't realize that for them...because, I'm like, "Oh, it's been a couple of months. They're getting back on the horse. I'm glad they're having some fun." For them, three months, I didn't realize that they and that person had been together for like eight years. So, three months for them was still really fresh and they ended up going into a really bad night because of it. I didn't mean too. I was trying to be like, "Oh, what was the most fun you've had in whatever" and they instantly went to the most fun they ever had which was with this ex, etc.

So for me, I love that trick. What I loved was that in my explorations of hot sex, I'd been practicing being there for people because, occasionally emotions come up and that's actually really good. We all have the chance to be emotional with our partners. These kinds of this hot erotic play are a great way to do that and build even more trust by being there for somebody if they do cry.

A trick that I love...well, not a trick but, a tool that I love doing is...and I got to do this with a play partner once and it's like become part of my thing, is say, "After everything is done, can you share with me some snap shots of those moments it was hot for you?" Describe that. Imagine you taking a picture for me with a camera. Share with me a moment."

I had this person I was playing with, it was actually three of us playing, because we all wanted to look in each other’s eyes. There was this moment where she said, "Oh, it was really hot when you were down on the bed and the other person was there and was touching you and I got to stand back and tell them what to do because, I felt like an orchestra director." I was like, "Wow, I would never have known that she was turned on “because, I thought she was stepping back to get water but, she actually was still having a really hot time and I had no idea that that's what then had her come back with so much more enthusiasm.

Next time, I now know what happened in that snap shot and she learned that from actually having gone and I've done this too, go with your lover on a...both of you with cameras on the same hiking trip or that same day at the museum or wandering around town. At the end of the day, compare each other photo rolls. What did each of you take photos of? You now have an insight into your lover's mind.

My girlfriend at the time when I first tried this out, she took pictures of me and of all the people that we passed because we were out hiking in Maui. I took pictures of roots and the sky and the water falls. I was obsessed with the landscape and she obsessed with the people and then we both talked about what we found beautiful. We now had insights into each other's mind that informed us for the rest of our relationship because, I found out she was really concerned about what other people thought about things and how people processed stuff and I was more concerned about how is the room doing, what is the temperature, is everybody's physicality okay? We had a better relationship.

[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely, awareness of each other it's a great tip. I like the camera example, that's pretty unique. To move back into the world of BDSM because, it's in 50 Shades, basically, it's everywhere and I kind of want to make sure people get a correct idea because, I understand there are things in 50 Shades the BDSM community is like, "That's not really a good way to portray it." Are there any specific things in that movie, I don't know if you've seen the movie or read the books?

[Lee Harrington]: I have read all three books and seen the movie so yes, I am versed.

[Angel Donovan]: Great so, what kind of things would you say to people at home, say they've seen the movie or they've read some of the books as many people have?

[Lee Harrington]: The first thing that I would throw down that my girlfriend pointed out so succinctly to me is that the main thing about 50 Shades because Christian Grey, the main lead character says, "You don't want to be with me. I can't be with you because, you're not kinky." She says, "Oh, now that you've whipped me and punished me, why do you want to hurt me?"

The issue is not so much the physicality because, people like different kinds of physicality. Some people like extreme sports, some people like playing video games, different people like different stuff. The issue is actually that he's coming to his sexuality from an unhealthy place.

If you are whipping someone because, you are angry and taking it out on them, look at what your reasons are. Why are you doing this? It's because you actually want to be whipping your mother for abandoning you, that's something to take to a therapists. That's coming to your sexuality from an unhealthy place and if somebody you're in a relationship with is coming to sexuality from an unhealthy place like Christian Grey was, that's a reason to consider whether that relationship is healthy for you. It's not about the sex. It's not about the kinds of kink.

On the flip side, Anastasia Steele, the lead female character is constantly and obsessively breaking the agreements that he has. He says, "You know what? All I want is for you not to touch me without my consent and I don't want to sleep with you right now until we've been in a longer relationship or if ever, I don't like falling asleep in the same bed with people." You find out in book two it's because he has nightmares and accidentally lashes out but, he's not vulnerable enough yet to say that. Sorry, spoiler alert.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I was going to say earlier. Never mind.

[Lee Harrington]: He has limits and she constantly breaks limits and if you're in a relationship with somebody who breaks limits, that's not about the kink either. That's not about the type of sex. That's about someone who doesn't listen to your limits and lines. That's somebody who won't respect you and your work and what you're doing.

So the first thing I look for is, are you in a healthy relationship? That's what I see as a red flag in that. Are you doing this because you're trying to be manipulative? That's a red flag to look for?

The next thing that I see in the movie is actually the flogging is pretty good in that right? Like, he runs it over her skin, he's very sensual, the tools are reasonable. The one that isn't is the rope bondage, that tie he does where he twists the rope and puts it on her wrists. You should do one extra twist. I have a book called Shibari You Can Use that talks about hands-on rope bondage talks about how to do that stuff safely and with fun.

[Angel Donovan]: So, is that one style? When you say Shibari, is that one style of rope bonding and there are others?

[Lee Harrington]: There is. There are lots of different styles yeah but, there are also free videos on line that you can find how to do this stuff safer at least. So, the rope bondage in the...as far as the how to, most of the stuff they're doing is pretty good. Whipping someone with a belt like that, belts are easy to trigger someone psychologically because, hitting someone with a belt is often something that's used as a form of punishment by parents who are abusive.

So, using a tool that you wouldn't have ever used like Christian Grey did, like you wouldn't normally use a riding crop on someone if it wasn't in a sexual purpose or you're at a horse event. I think they did that really well. The movies were very beautiful unfortunately, it's all played out what's unhealthy in those is the relationship and it's unrealistic to have a contract of that sort for most people. There are some people who like that sort of thing but, it's a very, very small percentage.

So, I think that's the one thing that that contract did show really beautifully is negotiation, where he came with a list of everything he wanted and then she said, "Ah, let's not do these things." That's not okay. It's a very extreme example.

[Angel Donovan]: It's a pretty extreme example though, right?

[Lee Harrington]: But he even says early on, "I'm an extreme player."

[Angel Donovan]: So, for people who haven't seen the movie, he's got a contract he wants her to sign and she has to read this five-page or whatever contract and go away. In the real world, how do those sorts of things get done? It's just a conversation?

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah most people in the larger world of kink, there's a couple different versions. One is that you meet someone, you're dating them and then it's like, "Hey, what are you into?" "Oh well, I'm into this." "Where do we cross over?"

I'm into rope bondage. My girl likes hot lingerie. What we end up doing is she wears hot lingerie and I tie her up in pretty rope bondage over the hot lingerie and she could wander around in my art work at a party. We both win. She feels pretty, I feel controlling, and we have both gotten our needs, wants and desires met. So, where are your overlaps in the diagram?

Other people fill out checklists and then email them to each other and go, "Here's the things that I'm into. Here are the things you're into. Where do we cross over?" Same idea and if you don't understand what crossed over, you have a conversation about it.

[Angel Donovan]: That's sounds like online dating kind of style.

[Lee Harrington]: It is! That's exactly it. That's exactly it. All the tools used for online dating, same things apply.

[Angel Donovan]: Are there any big sites? Is there the www.Match.com or the www.OkCupid.com of kink?

[Lee Harrington]: There is which is there's three different types of sites. The first type of site is those kinds of things where you fill out your checklist and you just look for other people who are cruising for sex, usually tonight which are things like www.Alt.com. But, the problem with www.Alt.com is just like any hookup site, you don't know who these people are.

People usually don't want conversations. They are just there to hook. So, it could be good but, you're also hooking up with a stranger so, you don't know if they're going to flip out on you. Right? Those kinds of sites can be hot but, also dangerous. You don't know somebody's actual skill set.

The main one that's out there is called www.FetLife.com, if you are an English speaker. There's other one's that I list in Playing Well with Others for people who are in other countries but, the main one is called www.FetLife.com which is short for Fetish Life. www.FetLife.com.

You fill out a profile but, you can't search. You can't just type in "Searching for women in Georgia." You can't do that. It doesn't search that way. What you do is you type in Georgia and there are all these groups that you join. You might find one that's called "Singles in Georgia" and then you post a little profile. You see who the other members are. So, it's more based on conversation and interests and regional discussions then it is in just quick searches "Looking for women between the ages of 25 and 45.

[Angel Donovan]: It sounded like it's more like a normal forum where people are just discussing the topic and the dating kind of comes afterwards. So, it's not like an online dating site where it's just like basically, transactional.

"Hey yeah, you look interesting, let's meet" kind of thing, you know. It's very straightforward but, the way you positioned it, it sounds more like talking with people and potentially, something develops from there like social.

[Lee Harrington]: If www.OkCupid.com and Facebook had a kinky baby is www.FetLife.com.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Lee Harrington]: So, you create a profile like in www.OkCupid.com, just like it. You carry a profile, you share your interest, you put up some photos but, think twice before putting up face photos because, you're putting it on a profile that says, "I'm kinky." There's some places where that's not appropriate, some cities or some whatever or you have jobs that might not be appropriate.

So, you put up these profiles so that when people see you on things they go, "Oh," and go back effectively to your www.OkCupid.com profile. So does that...you're making friends like on Facebook.

[Angel Donovan]: It's your commenting, you’re talking within and then, they can go and check your profile and get more information if you say something interesting. So, I guess it's like a discussion forum that you're talking about interests in rope bondage or whatever and then, you say something interesting and someone's like, "Oh that sounds like something I'm into" and they check out your profile.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah, that's exactly it and one of the things that's I'll do is find things that I'm interested in because, if I type in "Rope Bondage" on a website like www.FetLife.com, I'll pull up literally a thousand groups because, there's lots of different things people are into. So, what I do is when I find someone whose profile I find interesting, I'll look through their list of groups they're in and go, "Oh, what's this group? It looks like it has interesting discussions. I'll join that one."

So, it's a really interesting way to navigate because, it's more based on the life, the community and there are some people on there who are just looking to date and have fun, meet somebody, never go out to an event at all.

I also love those kinds of online events because I can type in and it shows me events in my area. So, I can type in "Georgia" and pull up, "Oh, here are all the upcoming events in Georgia that are happening. Oh, there's this big conference in Atlanta. “I’m going to one in Atlanta in October called "Sex Down South" which is part sexy event and part political activism. Okay, cool, I'm looking forward to meeting people who are in those shared interests but, there's also things called "Munches" which are basically happy hours that are sober.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, we've spoken about polyamory munches before. Is it exactly the same concept just different topic?

[Lee Harrington]: Exactly, where you're getting together for coffee or food. The one up here in Alaska happens at a local coffee and chocolate shop. So, you get a really nice muffin and you sit down with other people that you might have never met otherwise and you might not meet somebody you're into but, they might have a friend who has a friend.

So, somebody will say, "Oh, where are you from? What are you into? Let's talk about what you're looking for." They might say, "Oh, really? You girls who like stockings. Well, I have this friend named Butterfly."

[Angel Donovan]: That sounds like the easiest first step to maybe join www. FetLife.com, put you're profile up, look around, see what kind of thing interests you and then go to a munch where it seems like the friendliest first step you can take.

[Lee Harrington]: Absolutely and something to be aware of though when you're creating a profile like this (and it's again same thing happens with www.OkCupid.com) is be aware of what you want to put out there and what you don't. Also, be buckled in for what you might see because, on websites like that, you'll meet people who are brand new or all they're looking for is somebody who enjoys spanking or cross dressing. On the other end of the spectrum, you'll find people who like really extreme body stuff. You'll see stuff with blood, perhaps as an example and I'm not saying that a lot of people are into that because, I think it's a very small subsection but, it's something you will see pictures of.

So, I encourage people to kind of emotionally be buckled for a lot of different stuff that you might not be into just so that you know, you don't have to be into that. It's okay if you are but, you don't have to be into it. Right? Not all kinky people are into that stuff and if you don't like something you see, just close that window and go somewhere else. Same thing happens at parties, you don't like what you see, turn around and go somewhere else. It's okay.

[Angel Donovan]: That's a great point. I'd like to come back to the safety point when it comes to rope, like handcuffs, basically these kinds of tools. I think a lot of people have experimented with like handcuffs because, you have a lot of the lingerie shops and some whatever these kind of places have some kind of handcuffs or you can just buy them out somewhere else. So, I've experimented with them.

Honestly, I found most of the time, the girls get hurt because, they're not softer in the insides and if you're having sex or anything then, you know her wrists are going to get pushed in one way or another. So, my experiences haven't been that great with handcuffs to date.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So, in terms of the first steps in the kind of bondage area or someone's interested in it...because, it seems like one of the more things done. Would you say that's one of the more popular things?

[Lee Harrington]: It is. Erotic restraint is really popular. Some people start with just pinning somebody's hands down in sex. You're in a missionary style position and you hold someone's hands down while you're playing. That's really common form of erotic restraint. I think it more of erotic restraint because, a lot of people don't like bondage in general. Some people do. Some people like just being tied up and left there but, the bulk of people enjoy having it be sexy while they're in restraint.

So, if you're starting off with stuff, things that are thin, you're going to have a thinner pressure distribution. So, if you've ever seen girls who are wearing the super high stiletto heels, their feet are balanced on just like four square inches on their toes for an entire night. Their feet hurt. While, if they're in flat tennis shoes, their feet don't hurt. It's that kind of idea happens with the wrist.

So, if I'm pulling against a handcuff, it's meant to hurt. It's a device for holding prisoners held by the police. Right, that's what it's built for. So, those are dangerous unless it's over heaving clothing. So, if I have somebody that I've handcuffed over a sweater and then pulled their sweater up over their head, it hurts less. So, that's a trick I've used.

Or, ones that are fur padded hurt a little less but, better than that for safety, I love using leather cuff. You can find really nice padded leather cuffs. They're a little bit of a financial investment but there are ones that are cheaper than that that are fabric. They're wide fabric with a canvas strap in the center that has Velcro. So, they're quick and easy to get on and off. They're wider, they have a little more padding and they're easy to pull on.

Handcuffs are also problematic because, they get tighter and tighter unless you have real handcuffs that have a lock-pin hold to them that can actually stop. You'll see that they're real handcuff because, they have a key on one end and a little pin on the other, like a little poky bit on the other end of the cuff and that lets you lock it so it doesn't get any tighter. I see people who literally cut off circulation with that handcuff, not just cut in but, the girl's hands will go blue and they can't feel their hand for hours afterwards and they have marks for the next two weeks.

[Angel Donovan]: Right so, circulation's one of the biggest safety hazards it seems.

[Lee Harrington]: Circulation is big but, even bigger is actually nerve pain. If you pull just on the inside of the wrist, (there's even a spot on the inside of the arm between the bicep and the tricep), that if you feel those spots, you get a shooting pain. If you impinge those spots, it'll actually cut off the nerve and you can stop functionality in the hand.

I have a friend of mine actually, somebody I adored dearly who was tied up and she struggled too much and she was on an endorphin high and so she didn't notice that she was hurting herself. The ropes had slipped and she was pulling against that nerve spot and not noticing that she was hurting herself over and over and over again. She just wasn't paying attention and she typed a lot. She ended up not being able to use her outside pinky and like her outside two fingers for months to get full nerve functioning back.

So, circulation is important but, most of the time, it comes back within a couple of hours. It's scary. It's dangerous. You can cause harm but, even more than that is nerves. So bondage, people are like, "Oh it's fun." It is fun but, it requires trust and communication for both partners, for the person who is doing the tying up, checking in with your partner.

The trick that I love doing with restraint is that in the middle of sex or whenever I restrain somebody, I'll come up and I'll grab their hand and I'll squeeze with my fingers interlaced. What I want my partner to do (and I'll tell them ahead of time) is anytime I grab your hand, grab me back. I want to know you're here. I want to know you're with me.

It's a chance to check in physically but, it's also a chance to check in emotionally because, I've had some lovers who have gone quiet because, they're kind of freaking out but, they're not using their safe word or a way to tap out. A safe word is basically a way to say, "I'm at a point where we need to stop what we're doing. I'm not saying you’re a bad person. Maybe my foot has a cramp." Right?

I've had girls, I'm playing with...or when I've been the one...because, some guys are the ones who like...I'd say actually for men, it's a 50/50 split just like women of who wants to get tied up and who likes doing the tying because, sometimes it's a little fun to have somebody tie you up and ride on top of you. Right? That can be really sexy.

Having somebody who does go quiet...I had a lover squeeze my hand back and I'm like, "Whoa, she's not letting go." So, I slowly got off of her and I undid that wrist and undid the other wrist and then curled up next up to her while still petting her breast and still feeling really present, holding my body against her and she finally whispered over and said, "That was too much, too much."

Later what I found out was that she just hit this physical point and she started toughing it out for me because, her logic was, "I'll just deal with it until he comes." I was keeping going because, I thought she was having a hot time. So, I was prolonging myself.

[Angel Donovan]: That's really interesting because, we talk about the safe word. Obviously, this is something whenever you're getting into any of these, you want a safe word. We haven't talked about it but, I think a lot of people know what a safe word. You just pick whatever it is, "carrot".

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: If someone says the word "carrot" then, it's time to sit out and the reason you chose "carrot" is because, some people like to say, "No, no, no, please don't"...

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: ...and things like that when it actually means yes. I've actually had that experience. So beyond the safe word, you're saying that even the safe word isn't 100% fallible. You're saying that you have to do these other check-ins because, sometime people, (maybe if you're more dominant as well) they want to please you then, they're going through something which isn't very pleasant for them. It's not going to beneficial to your relationship or to sexual intercourse with you going forward.

So, are there any other checks like that people do. Is that something you kind of negotiate up front. Like you say, "If I squeeze you, squeeze me back," or do you just kind of a rely on the fact that that's what people tend to do if they're feeling okay?

[Lee Harrington]: It is a trust relationship because, it takes both partners communicating but, some people do go non-verbal both the top, the giving person and the bottom, the receiving person. As a note, not all tops are dominant. You might like tying up your lover because, she wants it and she's telling you to do it. So, you might be the service person who is doing it. So, these combinations happen in different ways.

So, there are the physical ones, the squeezing and physically checking in. There are the verbal ones, sharing with each other verbally how you're doing. Those are the two ones that I stick by with anyone that I'm new with. I actually in general encourage people to not go non-verbal but, the third one...when I'm first playing with them but, some people get into what gets referred to as a "subspace", a submissive head space that is exactly that. They're trying to please you or they've zoned out. They're flying high.

There's a third one that I sometimes use for people who are especially more experienced which is, "When you're really turned on, what does it look like?" I had a lover say to me, "I love growling. I love being feral." I'm like, "That's good to know." I had another lover say, "When I'm really into it, I'll probably be crying because, it's how I get my emotions out so I don't break down later in life." I'm like, "I'm glad I knew that ahead of time" because, I might have tapped out as a top seeing someone cry. So, finding out that crying was okay.

[Angel Donovan]: So it strikes me, you just said something there about someone being in a zone. It strikes me that a lot of this is about the emotional journey for people. They want to go through a big ..and it can be pretty extreme emotions. They're basically afraid to say anything because, they're in such a deep emotional place that they're not being responsive or it could get out of hand basically.

So, I just wanted to point that out because, I think most people can't relate to that kind of emotional extremity but, when you're putting people through these kind of situations which are purposely creating this dynamic, I'm guessing you can see quite a range of emotions that we don't see every day and people may not be used to that.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah and there are some people who are into these things just for the adrenaline rush, just because they want the physical activity. They want to get hot and sweaty and sexy and it's all about the physicality. For some people what it's all about though is the emotionality, getting to play with these emotions.

Some people like playing with fear and being scared. That one is really edgy because, you have to have a lot of trust. I don't like doing it off the bat because, "Wow, you're asking me to scare you? I don't know if I want to do that in a relationship “and some people just say no and that's okay.

Some people want to cry and just get it out and I know some guys are like, "I don't want to make you cry," well especially, if you don't want to be the bad guy. I have a very dear friend of mine who the first time he had his girlfriend ask him to hit her, he was like, "No. I will not be my father. I will not be the kind of man who hits a woman. Men don't do that."

It took her a lot of building of trust with him to say, "No, I'm not asking that. I promise to...here, just start out with just slapping my thigh" and he saw that she was moaning during it. He went, "Okay, this is different. She's not asking me to slap her across the face. She's asking me to drum." Once she reframed it as, "I want to be your human drum," he went, "Okay, I can drum. Drumming is okay."

But for her, she wanted to go on the physical experience but, for guys who don't want to make woman cry, it's okay to have that be like a, "No, I don't want to play with you if that's where you're going to go." You're allowed to have limits as the top. That's perfectly fine. Some people will cry, some people scream.

[Angel Donovan]: I'd say it's healthy to develop you, how did you say, tolerance and comfort with emotion because, women especially are often emotional. They're naturally biologically like that. So, we encourage guys to feel more okay with that rather than kind of freaking out just because she's crying.

[Lee Harrington]: You know what, pre-1868 when the word homosexual was invented, men hung out with men and were far more emotional around men than we are nowadays. Right? You see photos from the 1800s of dudes draped over dudes, all going out to the bar, drinking and laughing and crying all over each other and people go, "Oh, they were all queer" and I'm like, "No, those guys were just hanging out with other guys and weren't afraid to cry in front of only their guys and not their wives."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Lee Harrington]: But, we live in a culture where men aren't supposed to cry anymore, where we're now told by our fathers and whatever, "Man up, deal with your shit, men don't cry." I think kink can also be, if you've established trust with a lover, a place to cry privately that no one has to see you, you don't have to be ashamed by, that there's an envelope where you know you can enter into it in your full manhood, you can cry in your full manhood and then, leave in your full manhood because, you know that your girlfriend there, she sees you as the man that you are.

She's not going walk away from you because you cried in that scene. She's not going to walk away from you because, you've established that trust. There are people that I know who after they have hit someone, they're the ones who needs to break down and cry and be held by their girlfriend and that's okay too because, this stuff brings up emotions. It's playing with the shadow.

So to me, I love having a girlfriend who will after I've done both bad things to her and good things to her, will still curl up downstairs watching The Voice or The Black List and be totally nerdy with each other, play a board game and she'll be like, "I love you" and will go back to seeing me as the guy that I am, that I'm not either the villain or the victim that my internal brain tells me that I am because, we're all carrying these shadows.

Kink is a chance, once you've played it for a while, to use it as a tool in your tool box to look at your shadow in a safe space and then, close it up knowing that you are not your shadow. Your shadow just happens to be part of the thing you're walking around with.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, you had some great points there. We're talking in an extremely positive way, what's healthy, giving people good advice on how to do this in a healthy way. What I want to know is though, if they go out into the BDSM community and start getting involved in that, how many people are going to have these kind of values and these approaches and this kind of maturity?

What are they really going to come across when they go in there? Are they going to have to in a sense like be wary of things and see what's going on because, maybe it's just 10% or 5% of the community who like does all of this and then there's like there's different ranges and there's probably extremes where they do none of it as you said maybe newbies who have just come in and they're actually just interested in some dominant sex or something and haven't really thought about it at all.

[Lee Harrington]: So, I find that the BDSM and kink and whatnot communities are a cross-section. It's not a utopia. It's just like any other part of the world. You're going to have your drama queens. You're going have that guy who knows it all. He thinks he's an expert in everything. You're going to have the volunteer-aholic who never actually has fun and complains about how much work they do even though they're the ones who chose to be there. Just like any other community, you're going to have the cross-section.

I would say that about 75% of people I run into are coming to this stuff from a really healthy place. They're having fun with it, they're enjoying it, they're happy to negotiate, they stick by what they're doing, and those 75% are totally good to go.

The other 25% have some sort of baggage attached to them. So I think, it's actually a higher percentage of healthiness and awareness then the world at large because, I find it's about 50/50 in the world at large as far as rolling the dice on dating people that I run into. Where it's just like, "Okay", about 50% are people that I would actually want to hang out with when I go on a blind speed dating kind of thing, if that. So, for me 75% is pretty good odds.

The other 25% you'll find the occasional control freak. You'll find the woman who, you have that first date with and then, she gloms on to you like a limpet. You'll that time when you meet somebody and you're like, "Whoa, there's a lot of stuff going on and I don't know what's happening but, they believe in things that don't and I don't know what they're talking about."

So, actually it might even not be that high of a percentage but, as far as the dangerous people, people who you're like, "Okay, they're into this just to hurt people," it's rare but, they do exist. You will find that occasional person who is just mean and manipulative and what not. They're rare but they do exist just like in the world at large. You do find that girl who will just get all the information and pull a "Basic Instinct" on you. They do exist.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Lee Harrington]: Right?

[Angel Donovan]: Just to bring up a situation that might be a bit more relevant to the guys, because they're normally the one who's getting aggressed by a girl. As an example, one of my best girlfriends, she wanted me to cut her wrists with razors and things like that. I drew a line. I'm like, "No, no, that's something I'm not going to do."

Do you come across that sort of thing because, for me, that's just something that can involve legal problems and it's just not an area of life you want to get into beyond the fact that it's kind of freaky and it would freak most people out. There are obvious social implications for anything of that extent. Do you get that kind of behavior from a lot women or how common is that kind of thing, basically, it's actual physical damage to someone?

[Lee Harrington]: Full blown...I would refer to that as body mortification or extreme self-injurious behavior is comparatively low. Are there people who engage in that kind of stuff? Yeah because, there are people who find arousal from cutting. Cutting someone's wrist is incredibly dangerous. Period. That's how you kill people.

That's kind of like the idea of people who find erotic pleasure from hanging by a noose and experience that sensation of asphyxia. That can be hot for some people but, you can also kill people. I personally am wary of anything that can lead to death because, there are situations where dumb things happen.

For example, there was a situation that happened in Italy where, (the actual main issue with this in my opinion was the drugs but also the type of play) they decided, (this is a warning, this is an extreme story) where a man picked up two girls he didn't know at a bar. They had all smoked pot and been drinking and they decided to do a scene and there were two guys there but, one was just watching where the rope top ended up tying up these two women, putting a noose around one neck, putting it over an overhead beam and then, putting another noose on the other neck so that both the girls had to both stay on their tip toes while being fondled.

So, the picture is kind of hot but unfortunately, one of the girls passed out and killed both women. That's man slaughter. That's man slaughter. The guy has gone away, in my opinion rightfully so, both men I think. So, it's that kind of behavior combining drugs and alcohol, doing anything that involves potentialities of death, I actively ask people to consider, "What's your worse-case scenario? Are you okay living with that? Are all partners okay living with that" because, I've had girls tell me, "Oh, I'm happy to have you do X, Y and Z to me" and I'm like, "I'm not okay as the person who would do it. Just like yourself, if you die, I don't want to be the one living with that knowledge that I killed you."

If you are that person, you are making your own choices but, I would choose and encourage people to really think about your ethics and morals there because, that's a choice. I make the choice not to be that person per my ethics and morals. It's a very, very small part of the population.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that's good to hear. I just want to make sure the guys are kind of aware of what kind of stuff might come up and where they might want to draw the line and say no. I think it's an important boundary.

[Lee Harrington]: Yeah, the book of the people that you'll meet are people who will be like, "I am into X, Y and Z things. What are you into? Where can we find a place where both of us get our needs, wants and desires met?" I find that is the vast bulk of the people you'll run into.

[Angel Donovan]: Excellent so, one other area, just quickly because I know you're an expert in that is the rope thing. The rope thing seems pretty complicated in terms of the different styles. It takes a while to learn it as I understand it as well basically to avoid the things we were talking about earlier, cutting off circulation and the nerve damage situations. It's a little bit tricky.

So, is that really something you should get trained in? Do you have quick pointers on rope in general or maybe there's a style of rope that's better to start if someone's interested in that?

[Lee Harrington]: So, as I said or also, I've talked about it, I do have a book called Shibari You Can Use which is Japanese rope bondage and erotic macramé which was a tongue-in-cheek reference but, I thought it was funny and it's worked. It and its sequel are step-by-step of how to...I wanted to originally call it Rope Bondage for Dummies but, For Dummies wouldn't actually take the book. So, I just did it myself and got it published.

They both take it through a For Dummies kind of a level of stuff, how do you do it step-by-step because, the book that is "How do you find the nerve bundles? Let's avoid them. Let's keep circulation safe and here's a whole bunch of ways to make it quick and easy once you practice it. The really complex pictures that you see out there are layers of the beginner stuff.

So, one of the things that I look at is you go, "Oh, somebody is tied down to a bed spread-eagle", which means both of their wrists are tied out to the bed head and both of their wrist are tied out to the foot of the bed. That's what you want to do.

[Angel Donovan]: Over their ankles, right?

[Lee Harrington]: Right, by their ankles.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Lee Harrington]: What you're really looking to do then is to build four cuff. Whether it's on a wrist or an ankle, a cuff is the same thing. So, what you do is you would learn how to do a cuff. You put the knots on the inside of their wrist so that when you...and have it be a little loose so it doesn't cut off circulation and so that when you pull on the cuff, it pulls away from the nerve bundles that are all on the inside of the wrist.

You pull on that. You tie them down to the bed safely and securely to a bed that will actually take the stress instead of beds you will destroy and hurt both of you in the middle of having sex, having had this happen once. Don't destroy a bed especially, when it's not yours. That was embarrassing.

If you do that, you learn a couple of safe techniques and what I first did when I was practicing is I literally (because I was obsessed with Law and Order at the time because this was a decade ago) would sit there tying up my own ankle while watching Law and Order. No one else was around so that when I finally got in the bedroom, I wasn't fumbling and feeling stupid.

If you're brand new to stuff, the basic trick that I loved...and I was gifted this by my first play partner and I didn't know what they were doing until they told me later. I was like, "Oh, that's what you were doing." Tricky is they blindfolded me and anytime they quote "messed up"...right, they were like, "I didn't tie that safely or I need to redo this," they just pulled on the ropes, slapped my ass a couple of times, played with my nipples, kissed me really hard and then, undid it.

I was like, "Oh, they're just doing all this stuff to me. They're so forceful and sexy and actually, they had messed up and they were fixing it so that they didn't hurt me but, I didn't need to know that as the person receiving. I didn't need to hear them say, "Oops." I didn't need to hear them say, "Oh, I messed up."

They used it as an opportunity to play with me. I thought we were having a sexy time and they had a chance to make sure that I was safe and then could continue forward without worrying about me. I thought that was so responsible of my partner. I felt really cared for and so, I have been able to pass that forward to all of my lovers since then as to be like, "I want to care for you. As I'm dominating you, let me also show that you can trust me."

So, with rope bondage, a basic chest harness is ropes below and above the breasts and ropes over the shoulders twisted in specific ways and tied off. It looks really complicated at the beginning but, in my entire book, I think I have two and a half knots. That's it. Everything else is combinations. You don't have to learn lots of different stuff. It's about the mixing and matching and seeing, "Oh, once I have these things, how do I do new stuff with it." Does that make sense?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I think you've explained it really well and it sounds a lot less complicated than it looks because, you're right, one of the last girls I was seeing, she would have these crazy photos which went to a specific dungeons and stuff and have this stuff done. To me, it looked like, "Wow, that's just really complicated and I don't know how I'm going to get involved in that because, it just looks really, really over the top."

[Lee Harrington]: It's funny because, you can get as into as you want to. I know people that say, "I love video games" and what they mean by that is they want to learn how to do computer coding and they want to understand inside and out all of the Easter eggs and how to solve every level. Other people want to get in there, blow some stuff up to blow off some steam after work and they're done. That's it. They don't have to think about it. It's about showing up, using the thing and finishing it. It's the same thing with rope bondage.

There's some people would want to learn all of the crazy macramé and learn how to do these complex different things. Other people what they want to learn is how to do a quick basic wrist cuff and tie somebody down to the bed.

I have one person I used to play with what they like to say is if...because, they have people there just like, "I think you're hot" because, they had a lover specifically that made me laugh about this. They were like, "Well, I can't do rope bondage. All I know how to do is tie you down to the bed" and she was just like, "I don't care."

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Lee Harrington]: "I like you and I want to be tied up. I know I do this fancy shit but, I want to...you're hot. I want to get tied up by you. Just tie me to a bed. We'll be fine" but, it was his head...

[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely.

[Lee Harrington]: ...that was messing him up. He was saying in his head, he was thinking, "I'm not good enough for her. She has all this experience. Why would she want me." The answer was, "Because she wants you, because you're hot, you're sexy."

If a girls says, "I want you," it doesn't matter who else she's been with. It doesn't matter if she's been with some porn star. She wants to be with you. She thinks you're nice. She thinks you're good. She thinks you're perfect for her. The rest of it's the story in your head.

[Angel Donovan]: Excellent points Lee. So, I want to round off from...appreciate your time. So, just to round off, what are the best ways for people to connect with you and learn more about your work?

[Lee Harrington]: My website is www.PassionAndSoul.com and if type in "Passion and Soul" anywhere on the internet, Facebook, Twitter, Live Journal, I don't use my Live Journal anymore but, you see what I'm saying. Like Deviant Art, I'm everywhere under that user name, "passionandsoul."

If you type in Lee Harrington, you'll find either me or a really lovely woman who writes books about dog walking. She's lovely. We're friends on Facebook but, it's not me. So, those are two really great ways to find me.

If you go to my website and scroll all the way to the bottom, you'll see a section called "Stalking Made Easy" which has all of those links including on www.FetLife.com, I'm under that same user name. So, feel free to find me on there and I'm happy to help sort people in the direction that they need if they need some assistance.

I teach all over the globe. I've taught in six countries and 40 states and I'm going to eight more this fall. So, if you go to my website, you'll see my upcoming appearances. I also do one-on-one work with folks if people want to run by me what they're looking to do and get pointers personalized to them, I'm happy to talk through email or any of those other modalities I mentioned.

[Angel Donovan]: Awesome, great, lots of options there. Is there anyone besides yourself that you recommend for high-quality advice in this area?

[Lee Harrington]: Absolutely, you've actually had one of the on already which is Reid Mihalko. I think he's hilarious, fun, funny. One person was my community-author for Playing Well with Others which was Mollena Williams. Her website is www.Mollena.com, an absolute hoot. Tristan Taormino has a great book on anal sex that I would recommend and I got to be part of her anthology on the Ultimate Guide to Kink which is a great book I would highly recommend.

Another person I think is really fun and funny and fantastic in this is...and of course, this is when my brain farts out for a second...nope we'll start with those two because my brain is not pulling up the other ones but, I have lots of recommended reading. If you go over to www.PassionAndSoul.com and click on the "Shop" options, you'll see some of the books that I recommend from other people and their names will be on there.

Oh, the other person is a great guy named Graydancer, www.Graydancer.com and both he and I have podcasts. His talks about rope bondage but, he also does educational, all kinds of other kink and sexuality and as a guy who is now in his 50s, I just turned 50, he has a really great perspective from having been kinky and polyamorous most of his life. Great perspectives, that guy is great.

[Angel Donovan]: Excellent Lee, thank you so much for that. Okay, we ask everyone this last question. What are your top three recommendations to guys starting from scratch, really from new and they really just want to improve their dating life as fast as possible? So kind of like baseline, what would your top three recommendations for them.?

[Lee Harrington]: First, sit down and actually get to know yourself and what hamsters are you carrying around in your head because, if you need to spend some time with you dealing with that stuff that says, "I'm not good enough, I don't deserve women, etc.," you got to work on that stuff first because, you're going to end up projecting it on your dating life.

Second thing that I recommend is going out and have open conversations where you listen to the women you're dating. A lot of us stop and start thinking because, a lot of us are already thinking about what am I going to say in response. Just shut up for a moment and listen to them. It's hard to do at first but, honestly listen. Then, even reflect back, "Oh, what I heard from you was..." to make sure that you're hearing them properly and learning their language because, men and women don't always talk the same way.

The third thing I would recommend is sit down and once you're down with a date, on your own notebook, write down the things that were great about them (so that afterwards, you can go back if you've maybe gone for a couple of blind dates), you can sit down and go, "Oh, that's what was good about her" instead of having date number three mess up your memory of date number one.

[Angel Donovan]: That's a really good point. I think, especially in this world now with online dating, there's always way to meet people and you can have three dates in a week. If you haven't taken note or something then, you might have forgotten so many important things. I think, it's kind of weird but, when we go on dates, it kind of emotionally changes the perspective we have sometimes.

So, we can't really remember the, "How attracted was I to the girl last week. I can't really remember because, I've been through a few experiences since then, especially if they were intense. Now, I'm not sure how attracted and if it's worth following up." So, that's a really great point. I like that. We haven't had any of those suggestions before so, thank you very much.

[Lee Harrington]: Absolutely, I was glad to be on the show and thank you so much for having me on.

[Angel Donovan]: Great Lee, hope to talk to you again sometime.

[Lee Harrington]: Look forward to it. You take care and everyone at home, take care.