#83 Making Relationships Work Over the Long Term with Scot McKay
Today we're talking about relationships - making them sustainable, making them last long. Once you get into a relationship, you really want a great one. Not that kind of character relationship that dies after a few years. As we all know, the divorce rate is crazy these days and a lot of relationships don't last. So how do we make a relationship continue the way that it started, a really great sustainable relationship?
On the show, we have someone who is basically doing that. We have Scot McKay from X & Y Communications. He's been married to Emily McKay for eight years now and they have kids, and a great family. They're extremely happy together. The thing about Scot is that he's been a dating coach much longer than he's been married, and he continues to be a dating coach, even though he's married, and teach guys how to meet women, and so on.
Obviously, his experience in his own life is going to affect that and it's obviously a strength in his life. He has a great relationship with a woman who he is married to and that is not a typical thing for a lot of the dating coaches, whether it's because of age or because of what they are interested in; the kind of lifestyle they are interested in.
I asked Scot to come onto the show to talk about his experiences and what he's learned, because that really is his strength.
Specifically, in this episode you'll learn about:
- The type of relationship Scot is currently involved in: marriage and family life (02:40)
- Seeing the value in building yourself and ideas to get guys motivated to see that long-term value (08:30)
- How to make relationships work over the long term and the biggest challenges (20:00)
- What does leadership look like on a daily basis in a relationship? (25:34)
- Taking responsibility for your own happiness instead of putting that responsibility on the woman you are with (35:33)
- Navigating conflicts and arguments in a way that is healthy for a relationship (37:53)
- Setting boundaries for a healthy relationship (42:50)
- Avoid creating an environment in which a woman feels she is being judged throughout that relationship (48:30)
- Scot's perspective on recommending high quality advice in dating, sex, and relationships (50:15)
- Top three recommendations to help men get results as fast as possible (to get started) with women in this area, and improve it (52:43)
Items Mentioned in this Episode include:
Books, Courses and Training from Scot McKay
Full Text Transcript of the Interview
[Angel Donovan]: Hey Scot, thank you so much for joining us today.
[Scot McKay]: Hey Man, it's my pleasure.
[Angel Donovan]: Great, great. We've actually done this before but, we lost a copy of it many years ago. So, we're not going to do that this time, because remember, we had a great chat before and it didn't get out to the world. So, let's set a bit of a context here. How old are you and what kind of relationship are you in today?
[Scot McKay]: Well, I'm 48 years old and sometimes people think I'm younger than that but, if I were ever to go to like a big mastermind meeting where all the dating coaches and pick-up artists kind of hang out and share what they're doing in their businesses and whatever, you would find that I'm basically everybody's big brother. I'm like, "You'd be Yoda." I'm like Dad and the weird thing is, I'm not the oldest guy.
There's several guys doing this that are quite a bit older than I am (actually quite a number of them), but I think a lot of those guys who are still out there are kind of acting like 20-somethings. So, I still kind of get casted into the "Dad/Big Brother" role. If you guys know Dave M from Insider Internet Dating, he calls me "Papa Bear". That's his code name for me.
It could also have something to do with the fact that I'm happily married to a wonderful woman who I call "my proof of concept" and that's Emily. Between us, we have four children, kind of a like a twisted side-ways Brady Bunch thing.
[Angel Donovan]: Very nice. Is that two boys, two girls?
[Scot McKay]: Yeah, two boys, two girls and she had a son, I had a daughter and perhaps, amazingly, the two older ones, unrelated look like each other and they get along amazingly well. It's really weird. It's just strange and they both have very unique personalities and they get along with each other. They're very similar.
Then, she and I popped out two more kids, two beautiful, gorgeous kids because, I have a beautiful gorgeous wife. As an aside guys, that is another really good reason to have a beautiful wife because, you're kids come out so damned cute. I mean, it just works out really well. If you've been hit with an ugly stick, it's amazing how a beautiful wife sort of just neutralizes that and you end up having cute kids anyway. You can look around and see the evidence of this. It's amazing.
So, we have a little son who is a chip off the old block. He's John Scot Jr. and he's seven and he's basically owning it in elementary school to the point where we have disciplinary problems.
[Angel Donovan]: That's fine. I had disciplinary problems when I was a kid. I'm sure you did too.
[Scot McKay]: I don't want him to grow up to be a little sheep who follows directions. I mean, they go to school and the teachers like, "Okay, today we're going to have leadership training." "Okay, what does leadership mean?" he says. "Well, leadership means, following directions and showing you're other classmates that you know how to follow them."
My son will blurt out things like, "That doesn't sound like leadership. That sounds like following. It's that you know how to follow." The teacher will say, "Kid, will you just be quiet and listen to me?" "No, because that would be following too. I want to lead." Then, he gets sent to the office.
[Angel Donovan]: That doesn't sound like a problem. That sounds like independent thinking. You can see his future is going to light up.
[Scot McKay]: Right, exactly and I keep trying to say to the vice-principal and the principal, "This kid is doing everything to indicates that he's just going to be an incredible bad ass when he's an adult." They say, "Please don't say bad ass in my office." I think I know where I stand.
Anyway, my daughter is three and she's precious and adorable and living proof that when guys first of all think it is just this fearsome life-ending tragedy to even become a father, then they start thinking, "Well, at least if I'm a father, give me a son. May your first child be a masculine child," kind of thing. I'll tell you what, having a daughter is just so amazing.
I tell you what, having a daughter is just so amazing. They love you unconditionally. They adore the fact that you're male. They remind you of the things you're supposed to be doing to man up even more than your own wife might. They brighten your day. They're just incredible.
Having a daughter is the most surprisingly amazingly awesome experience for me and I had several guys who were kind of like "Yodas or Big Brothers" to me tell me that. When my first daughter was in the making, she's now 15...
[Angel Donovan]: That's an interesting age.
[Scot McKay]: And she still adores me. She still gives me a big hug and thinks I'm her hero. So, all this idea about your kids grow up and rebel and they hate you, I don't know.
[Angel Donovan]: It might be something you've done wrong.
[Scot McKay]: I did something wrong to make her still like me.
[Angel Donovan]: No, no, no, I mean the rest of the world who doesn't have that positive relationship in the teens, it might mean that they did something wrong. This psychological stuff is tricky.
[Scot McKay]: It is.
[Angel Donovan]: You could think you're doing a good job and you could be doing the opposite sometimes.
[Scot McKay]: And I've seen wonderful parents have really amazingly evil children and I've seen people who really screwed up as adults have their kids come out amazing. However, there usually is a pattern and I think in our case, it was a matter of loving the kids, supporting them through what they're wanting to do, not forcing them to do things they don't want to do. Like, "I want my kid to play baseball so, damn it, here's a glove, here's a bat. We're going to go play baseball," when the kid wants to do something else.
[Angel Donovan]: Right.
[Scot McKay]: And, not being their friend, not being their buddy because, you lose respect that way but also, not flipping out and freaking out and having a thin skin when something bad happens. Being a forgiver as you're a leader. I think all that's so important but, you know, we have four of them crawling the house now. So, we've a got a little bit of experience.
[Angel Donovan]: That's excellent. So, how long have you been married now?
[Scot McKay]: We just had eight years. We've know each other nine and I'd do it all over again. That seven-year itch thing, I don't understand what that would have been. I still adore this woman. She still turns me on and everything you've ever heard from like David DeAngelo all the way back through Double Your Dating and all that stuff about never stop doing what you did to turn her on to begin with. God, that's so true.
Guys sit there and get kind of complacent and they turn into little wusses and they don't want to do anything around the house and they sit around and get lazy. Just keep being the man you were who turned her on the day you met her and you just don't have to worry about it. It'll go find from there. She'll still think you're great and she'll still want to keep herself up for you and she'll still want to please you and impress you and be fun for you, all because you're still leading as a man.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. This is an interesting topic because, when we're coaching guys (we have an academy now), it's some of this stuff about building yourself we always want to have them working on because, it takes a long time. But, they often don't see the value of it because, it's not a pick up line, it's a result in the next week, it's going to take time. It's something I find it hard to get guys motivated about, although in the long term, as you're saying, it's a really, really essential bit.
So, have you got ideas just on that because, I know you cover these kind of topics. I do want to talk about relationships and stuff with you because, you've obviously got a pretty cool relationship and I know you talk about that as well. But, since it's come up, I think it's a tricky subject. How did we get guys motivated about this longer-term stuff which we can't really see the end-result coming down the next week or the next month but, it's really, really essential.
[Scot McKay]: First of all, you're dead on, bang on accurate about the whole idea of becoming more attractive to women becoming a better man. Guys come and work with me and it's all about getting more women. Then, they wake up and they're promoted at work or they get a new job or they're more respected on their softball team or whatever it is because, they're just a more evolved man.
What I would call a "Big Four Man", more personal confidence, more masculinity in the way women would define it. In other words, what turns women on not what's macho, having character, doing what you're say you're going to do and also being the kind of man who can make other people feel safe and comfortable in his presence. You feel like a protecting power influence whenever you're in a group of people.
Another thing I teach guys, (actually, the more I think about it lately the more revolutionary it is) is to be more warm. You know warmth draws and coldness repels and guys think when they're being warm they're being cheesy or "Mr. Nice Guy" or being perhaps even feminine but, you can be a strong, masculine, courageous, goal-centered guy with a plan and have a warm welcoming, "smile with your eyes" demeanor and help people to feel really good about themselves and that just makes life so much better.
Those are a lot of the things we teach and what I tell guys is, "Hey look, this may seem like this big huge long road." I'll tell you straight up, Angel, I don't teach at all anything like, "Here are three magic words that make women spread their legs." I won't do it. I don't think it's ethical.
[Angel Donovan]: Let's talk about that quickly, because we have people from all sorts of backgrounds on this show, that's what we do. We just want to find people with ideas no matter the background, no matter if it makes people uncomfortable because it's from some extreme lifestyle or place, if they've got ideas and they're helpful, I think it's interesting. So what do you position?
[Scot McKay]: There's different schools of thought on that for sure. I mean, there's people who say, "Hey look, that's what sells." People are buying the programs that say, "Here are three sentences you say and women just will love you forever and leave their husbands", but all I'm saying is I don't believe that it's ethical to tell people, "Here, you do this and you have completely different success."
We tell people that it is going to be a road. It is going to be some time that it takes to get to where you're going to be but, first of all, (to get to your main question here) it doesn't have to take as much time as you think. Some guys go, "Oh God, this is going to take forever and I just can't do it." Well, the breakthrough may be a lot closer than you think.
Second and perhaps more importantly, whenever you're on this journey to becoming great from being mediocre or whatever you want to call it going from good to great, even though it looks intimidating, there are these small successes you achieve along the way. You don't just hammer and hammer and hammer in obscurity until one day, Bam, it's like hitting the lottery and all of a sudden you're great. It happens one day to the next.
You're improving as you go along and the small successes that you celebrate between now and where you ultimately want to be are each a lot of fun. You'll go from being completely dateless to having some girl interested in you. Yeah, she's not the woman you'd to have but, this is great. "I love having a woman who's interested."
Then, you raise the bar and you raise the bar some more and then you're dating four women at once and you're doing things you didn't even know where possible. You're going further along and every time there's a milestone reached, even a small tiny one, you celebrate it.
[Angel Donovan]: Exactly.
[Scot McKay]: I think that's the secret between guys who fail even in business.
[Angel Donovan]: You're mirroring all my thoughts for business. It's exactly the same path and I think that's why it goes back to is conversation of "It's becoming a man", because life, going through life, experiencing life, overcoming challenges, this is what builds you to what you are. You see straight away the guys who are taking challenges and doing stuff in their lives, just getting out there, doing stuff. It doesn't really matter what it is as long as you've been going for what you're interested in and going after it. That starts to change you just on its own.
So, that's the kind of stuff that I like to see guys going, just finding out what their passion is and starting to do something about it. I like it's always something they should have going on in the background while they're learning obviously how dating relationships work, what a good approach is, what a bad approach is, all of this kind of stuff which is going to help you get a smaller results you're talking about.
In which I think celebrating (we were talking about motivation), it's celebrating those little things, even though she's not the 10. I think half of the problem is guys get this idea they want a 10 today and then, anything else they have, even if it is way better than where they were before, they're not going to congratulate themselves and they're going to actually dis themselves and that is going to keep them down, it's going to keep them less motivated and they're just not going to keep moving forward.
[Scot McKay]: Yeah, and their idea of a 10 may be different than the rest of the world's idea of a 10 anyway. So, they go chasing what they think is going to make them look good in terms of a woman and then, they get that woman and go, "God, I can't stand this chick." Then, they get rid of her and find a woman who turns them on and who they like much better and maybe they have a certain type of woman and some of their buddies are going, " Yeah, well I'm glad you think she's great and all but, whatever," and that's just what makes the world go around.
So, even then, the ability to get a super model into your life and then kick her out of your life is like one of those high level steps, getting to where you eventually want to be.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it's hard to skip that step, I think for most guys. You're right, it's these expectations, these ideas that are upon us but, I think in a sense it's hard to even listen to pod casts and have guys like us who have done it just saying, "You don't need to go for that step. It's not for you," but I think in a sense, you kind of have to do a lot of these things anyways. For most guys, it just something you've got to go through to come to the end conclusion that you just want to follow what's really in your interest.
I'll tell you what Man, I remember the first time someone I'd never heard of bought my first book. It was amazing. To this day, it was one of the most euphoric moments in my entire career, dine your career as a dating coach. Nowadays, that happens at least every day, hopefully more than once and there's more products and people are paying me to coach them and I've become a lot more used to that little bit of success but Man, the first time someone actually paid me money for my book was huge massively fun and that was of course, a small step. I couldn't give my boss the middle finger and quit my job because somebody paid $27 for my book but Boy, it sure felt good.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah and that's the most memorable thing. If we take it back to women, if I remember maybe the first time I walked up to a girl during the day and I was all scared about it and she smiled at me responded well and I took her number, that was a huge deal for me.
[Scot McKay]: Oh yes, oh yeah!
[Angel Donovan]: That was more important than a lot of the stuff that happened afterwards because, that was a game-changing moment. That is a game-changing moment when your ideas about what you're doing changes.
[Scot McKay]: Yeah, they've interviewed guys who are young multi-hundred-millionaires and billionaires like the guys who get rich from the internet and stuff like that and these guys will be like, "Yeah you know, when I was a kid, I had this picture of a Mustang GT on my wall and it was, God, if I could just drive a Mustang GT I'd be such a boss and now that I've got like a collection of Audi R8s and Lamborghini and I get pissed off because I can't just go and get the new Ferrari that I'm on a waiting list for."
It's like becoming a heroin addict. It's like the drug, you need a bigger drug to give you the same thrill and sometimes when you become super wealthy, you get to the point where that drug is really hard to get. It used to be nice just to get away for the weekend and go to the Jersey Shore. Now, you have to get your private plane fired up and go to the Maldives to get that thrill and you've been there 10 times.
It's kind of like a "poor little rich kid" story but, it was fascinating to read that interview with those guys and have them talk about how harder it is to scratch that itch now that they've gotten so far up the food chain in terms of how much money they have and I think it's a lot like that. I think, when you haven't experienced a whole lot of thrill at all, those little thrills are really meaningful. When you get to a point where it's just really easy to get thrilled, the whole idea of thrill kind of a gets knocked down a few notches.
If I may, one of the things that guys were sort at the beginning stages of improving their skills with women really don't like hearing is something like, "You know the whole idea of this really beautiful woman having any guy she wants and being able to reject any guy she wants and how you're going to get past her defenses and whatever, that's not really gender specific. You can have that kind of power with women also where a lot of women find you really amazing and want to be with you and you're sort of having to give the 'just be friends' talk to lots of women." Guys go, "You've got to be frickin kidding me. Beautiful women have all the control."
But really, whoever has option, whoever has ascended to the point of being really attractive has the control. Whoever has options has control and yet, because of the nature of male leadership, a lot of times very young girls who are very cute get very used to, accustomed to, I may say, having a lot of male attention very early so that the whole idea of things like going out on dates, getting a boyfriend, the availability of sexual opportunity is like a non-issue. It's just another part of life.
And guys get so mad when they realize that. It's like, "Oh my God, if I could just get laid it would be like, too good to be true." That's because your experience is different. If I say to one of those guys who have been blessed enough to live in the Western world, "Look, if you went to Burger King and got yourself a Whopper for lunch, how would you feel about that?" "I do that every day." "Well, exactly but, if you go to South Sudan and through a Whopper in the middle of the street, there may be a dog-pile of people killing each other for it."
It's all a matter of your experience, what you're used to and how far you've raised the bar. So, for most Western guys yeah, we can walk into a Burger King or an In and Out Burger and grab lunch and pay $6 for it and it's normal. Whereas somebody who has never had anything like that, like you go to a guy in India who makes $1.40 a day and hand him a number six platter from Auto Burger here in Texas, he's going to go, "Oh my God, this is the greatest day of my life."
It's all a matter of your experience and those little successes in the context of what we do whether it's business or family life or traveling or getting good at one of your hobbies or knocking things off your bucket list in general, all those little successes makes life a lot more fun than just saying, "Okay, my goal is to be a ten millionaire."
Most guys who come in with a goal of, "My goal is to be a ten millionaire" never get there because, they don't set those smaller goals. Every guy I've ever known who has picked up a guitar and said, "I want to be a rock star and I want to play the solo from Free Bird" ends up saying, "Man, this really makes your fingers on your left hand hurt. Maybe this isn't for me" and throws the guitar in the corner like two hours later. It's just funny how the human mind works like that doesn't it?
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah it is. That's why it's important to point out that you should be celebrating these little steps and to make it clearer that it's not so far away. I wanted to talk a little bit about how to make relationships work with you because, you've obviously got this long relationship and a lot of experience there. So, I think that one of the things that we haven't really talked about on this pod cast yet is how to make relationships work over the long term and even if you should do.
Because, there's a lot of guys are listening who probably have had one relationship at some time or another that didn't work out and they're still not clear on why that was or maybe there was some things they could have handled differently. So, in terms of the biggest challenges in making a relationship work, what would be your vision of that? What are the top three?
[Scot McKay]: Well, the top three challenges of making a relationship work, first of all, choosing the wrong person to get into a relationship with which is pandemic. I mean, I have a guy who comes from a culture who you can theatrically get an arranged marriage. His problem right now is he's having a hard time keeping women attracted to him after a couple dates which says to me, anytime a guy comes to me with a clear pattern, it's guess what, you have control over it.
You can change it. It's you, not all these women. It's not like all these women don't like me after two dates. You're doing something. That's great news, by the way.
And so he's saying, "Yeah you know, I'm thinking I'm just going to let my parents arrange a marriage for me just so I can find a woman." I'm like, "What so, she can become unattracted to you after she's spent two hours with you but, she's stuck with you? I mean, is that going to make your life better? Is that going to be a happy ending?"
You've got to deal with the root cause. Why aren't you attracting the women you want to attract? And, I believe most guys can if they do what it takes to recover their natural birth-right of being a masculine man who attracts women. It's what we're born to do.
So, that's the first one, is settling. Settling for the wrong woman or getting into a relationship with a woman who isn't ready to be one half of a great relationship anyway. That's a whole another conversation but, let's just throw them all under the heading of "Poisonous Crazy Chicks". Okay?
The second one, I think, is understanding the importance of sexual polarity. You're in a situation nowadays where people, second-wave feminists are trying to soften men up even as they harden themselves and go do the heavy lifting at jobs and stuff like that and there's sort of this movement afoot that trivializes sexual polarity like masculinity and femininity are mythical. Whereas, they may be mysterious but, they're far from mythical. They're the building blocks of sexual attraction.
Every time I get guys who were say, want to get better at online dating, "Hey send me seven or eight women who you think are hot in your metro area." Every time, every single time without exception, they send me these girlie girls, skirts, with their finger nails painted and long pretty hair and Farah Faucet Majors smiles and they don't send me these frumpy butchy chicks with crew cuts and sweat pants.
They send me women, like girls and a lot of times guys get neutered when they get into a relationship. They go, "Alright, I'm going to have to slay any dragons, I'm not going to have to kill a mammoth for dinner so, I'm just going to sit around and do nothing and get soft and go the easy route," and the woman starts nagging at them.
Anytime you have a woman who never used to nag who starts nagging, that means you're not manning up. By the way, you can file that away. You have to go through the file cards and go, "Okay, am I making bad decisions? Am I not being courageous? Am I no longer a man with a plan? Am I without ambition here? Am I not making her feel safe and comfortable?"
All those things, you have to run through those file cards because, if you're getting nagged and the relationship's going south, it's a masculinity/femininity issue and if you're not attracting each other sexually, just be roommates and stop trying to make this into a relationship. Okay, so that's second.
The third is failing to recognize that bold leadership is the absolute number one indicator of successful relationship between men and women. In second place, I mean, up there also is character but, let's just awesome that there's character just like you would assume that there's sunlight in order for photosynthesis to take place in the biological world. Let's assume everybody here is good people. We're all men and women of character.
Bold leadership is what's going to take that relationship and make it survive. You're making good decision. You're making decisions that are in the best interest of the people in your family. You're being a dumb ass. You're spending the last $600 the family has on golf clubs instead of food. You're not staying out all night and not calling anybody and telling people where you are.
You're being consistent. You're being a perimeter defender like they would say in the NBA. That's what I like to call it. And a lot of guys are like, "Well you know, I'm not going to take a bullet for this chick. Let her get her own job so, she can contribute to the grocery bill."
Well, whatever you two decide to in that regard is fine but, I'll tell you what, I don't care how strong, how powerful a woman she is, if you put her in the passenger seat of your car and say, "Where do you want to go on a date?" she's going to be disgusted with you. You've got to be a leader.
Leadership turns women on and I have yet to meet any woman, regardless of what she'll tell you with her words, who doesn't follow male leadership and like doing it as long as that male leadership is benevolent, it's in her best interest. So, those are my top three.
[Angel Donovan]: Great, great thanks for that. I really like the last one and I think we should explore that one a bit more to help guys visualize it a bit better because, leadership is a huge topic as you know. In the business world, everywhere, you know, it's like a huge thing and in terms of practical things that would actually help people see what that is, what does leadership look like on a day to day in a relationship, like tiny little examples of what happens in a day-to-day basis?
[Scot McKay]: Well I'll tell you what, I could give little tiny examples but, I don't want to orphan everybody. Let me give you one big example and we'll talk about the little examples that come behind it.
I have an analogy that started, I've really works really well. Think of a nest and mama bird and papa bird and there are some eggs and babies in the nest. I think the man's job as leader is outside the nest. That's what I mean by a perimeter defender, go get the food, make sure an eagle doesn't swoop on the nest, do a good job, make sure to keep predators away.
It's not that women don't lead. It's that women are either in lover-mode or they're in mommy-mode and they can't do both. She can't mother you and she can't be your lover.
Like if you've ever gone to Hooters or somewhere where they have hot waitresses, sometimes the waitress will be be flirtatious with the guys, if that male/female polarity is going on. Other times, you can go to a Hooters restaurant and she's like, "Okay guys, here's the beer you ordered" and she slaps them down. "Anything else you guys need? You guys better behave yourself" and she marches away like a sergeant.
That's what moms do. That's her sort of taking her sexuality out of the picture and being sort of a mommy to those guys who want their beer. Some women are very shy and they're just very demurely, like they'll slink away if they're not attracted but, those women aren't Hooters waitresses. They go get another job.
So, inside the nest when mom has kids, typically moms are better at dealing with children than dads are. Typically, I mean, it's a stereotype but, it's a learned skill but, there's just something about how women keep the household going that's magical and if they don't like doing it then, they don't have to do it.
Again, I've met a lot of women with advanced degrees who do amazing jobs and as soon as they get the chance to be a stay-at-home mom, they jump at it. It's remarkable even regardless of what they said.
So inside the nest, everything that makes that household spin, yeah mom can have leadership over that but, anything outside the nest, the big decisions that affect the whole family, dad is the one taking care of that as the perimeter defender. Now see, if dad doesn't make decisions that positively affect the nest, he's failing everybody. So, it's a huge responsibility.
So, that's kind of the nature of relationship and guys will finally say, "My God, it sounds like you're talking about treating your wife as one of the kids. She's an adult. Doesn't she have her own ability to make decisions and think for herself?" Well, of course she does.
That's why when guys say to me, "Well, you know what, I'm going to tell this bitch we're going to go to the Italian restaurant whether she likes it or not because, I'm not going to give away my power." It's like, "Well, wait a minute, wait a minute. If she's got an incredible tomato allergy or something and she says, 'I don't think maybe we should go to the Italian restaurant because, it's not really the kind of food I like' then, it's perfectly okay to ask her what kind of food she likes, then you make the decision to do what she wants to do. That's different than being manhandled and ordered around and that's something that the woman would appreciate." That's one example.
In terms of being a leader, it's always a matter of listening. You know how women harp on, "I want a guy who listens." Well again, a lot of times guys misinterpret that. It's not that the woman wants to cow-tow to her or worse, obey her commands. That's not what she means.
She means, "Look, if you don't even ever listen to what I say or know what I'm about, how are you going to know my wants, my desires, my dreams, my fears, how freaky I want to be in bed, if you're not even listening." And then see, when the guys listens, he can understand what's going to be in that woman's best interest even by her own estimation. That listening allows him to be a better leader.
Again, I'd like to assume people who weren't broken and people who have high character whenever I'm talking about how men and women are supposed to relate. So, assuming a woman who's sane and who's not broken. In other words, she's not just mistrusting men and hating men no matter what they do.
As soon as you come with leadership that's in the woman's best interest, what woman in her right mind is going to deny that or revolt against it? See a lot of times, pick-up artists talk about building compliance. I've said it before elsewhere and I'll say here, I don't want compliance. I want willingness.
I want women who are willing to be with me, willing to have sex with me, want to be here. I don't need a woman who is compliant. I don't need a robot. I don't need her to obey me. That isn't even gratifying for me because, I'm a decent human being.
So that's another example of leadership, are you making a woman willing or are you trying to coerce her? It's kind of like the idea of demanding respect versus earning respect. I would much rather earn respect than command it. I don't want to be a heavy-handed unenlightened despot who commands people bow down before me under penalty of pain of death. That just isn't how I get down. I want to be a beloved leader.
That's something I think a lot of times guys lose focus of especially if we allow ourselves to have that emotion sneak in where we start becoming a little bit bitter towards women after we've been rejected. It's much better, in a leadership sense even, to take responsibility for your own actions, your own feelings, your own consequences and man up and make the changes in your life to get what you want to deserve.
See, I've been talking about deserving what you want for years and years and years. This is something that nobody else talks about, the idea of deserving what you want is leading in a way as a man where you get the results you're hoping for. As a man, you have this incredible birth-rite. You have this opportunity everybody's handed it to you to lead. It's what's desired of you even by women therefore, you have so much control over your destiny.
You have so much control over what happens in your life because, you're looked upon as a man to be a leader. So, are you leading toward disaster or are you leading towards a direction where you're going to get what you want from life? Guys, if you're not getting what you want out of life as a man, you're not leading in that direction. That's a powerful thought.
I mean it really, if you allow it to, frees you from feeling like a victim and saying, "Oh, this is something everybody else is doing to me." You don't have to be like Eor from Winnie the Pooh anymore. You can be more like Tiger. You know, you can say, "Hey, this is great. I'm going to go out and make something happen" and I think the nuance that people miss is that the leadership is expected.
When you lead in a way that's good and is going to get the results you're looking for, people will help you do that. But, they're not going to lead in a way where you're going to get the results you're looking for if you're not even pointing yourself in that direction. You see what I mean?
[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely. We're really talking here about guys taking responsibilities for themselves first and what they want because, it strikes me that a lot of guys that get into these kind of relationships, they end up settling for a while. It's dynamic that I often see is that a guy will meet a girl that's okay for him and then, because it's early on in his own development, (it's like what we were talking about earlier) it's his first good thing so, he really builds that up in his mind and he settles for that girl.
Down the line, he hasn't even had the time to development himself and take responsibility for himself, which direction he's going. He hasn't really defined where he's going himself and he kind of loses himself in that first relationship even though he didn't even really know if she was for him because he hadn't defined himself as well, if that makes sense.
So, this whole responsibility thing, it's like the foundation to any leadership. You have to take responsibility for your own life and when you start doing that, you start to figure out what you want. That's the first step.
We were talking about these long-term step before and if you haven't even done that, it becomes very difficult to take any kind of leadership because, you can imagine yourself in the relationship...the girl's like...just, if you're taking decision you're making.
I love the way you're looking at it which is like you're taking responsibility for the woman's life as well in terms of, you know, your girl's life, you want her to have a good life and want her to be happy and all of those things. You've got to take a bit of a responsibility that on some level like you're making sure that things around you are going well but, you can't do that if you don't really know where you're going and what's making you happy either.
[Scot McKay]: Oh, that's so true. That's why the whole idea of long-term planning ambition, "Where are we going here?" that's what the woman wants to know. If you're like, "I don't know" then, she's not really going to have any real benefits to hitching yourself to you because then, you'll go nowhere together.
One of the things, (I think this is worth noting) what we're hitting on here with the whole idea of responsibility and leadership is a huge, huge reason why younger women would go after older guys because, a lot of the times, younger men just don't get it yet. They're still kind of a missing the point in that regard.
I mean hell, everybody's parents are like, "Why don't you become responsible and grow up." I mean, responsibility and maturity go hand and hand. So, when these guys are like, "All these women are going after these old guys. What the hell's wrong?" That's what's going on.
It isn't because these guys are older. It's not because they've had more birthdays. It's because they're more responsible and they're leaders and this makes women horny. It's not a logical decision.
These women are literally getting hotter for guys who have these traits we're talking about. So, it's not even like we're trying to convince women they should go out with us because we're a better choice because we're better leaders, this is what makes their panties wet.
They're women. They're wired differently. What turns them on is different sexually than what turns us on and these are the golden rules that we're talking about.
[Angel Donovan]: Some of the first things you can take a step back there also is like taking responsibility for your own happiness. A lot of guys, they don't even start there so, they don't feel happy with themselves. They don't start taking responsibility for that and of course, they outsource it to the girl. This is what brings a lot of them into the dating advice area is like, "I want to learn how to get a girl so that she'll make me happy."
So, that's really the first part of taking responsibility. If you're not going to take responsibility for your own happiness that's just not going to work because, you can't make anyone else happy or make them interested in you if you haven't already got that.
[Scot McKay]: You can even drill down even further. The first order of business is, "Stop waiting for women to man up and show you how attracted they are to you and waiting around for women to ask you out. Man out and meet the women you want and ask them out." That's the first order of leadership is, "Which one of these chicks do you want?" I hear guys all time like, "Well, I'm on line and waiting around for these women to write me."
[Angel Donovan]: Really? Wow.
[Scot McKay]: The most downloaded episode of my podcast is "How to Get Women to Approach You." I mean, guys want women to do all the heavy lifting. I hear from guys...
[Angel Donovan]: That comes from fear. That's just fear of rejection, I'm guessing and guys being lazy and not wanting to expose themselves to that kind of risk. But, it's funny because, on Tinder and stuff, when you say hi to girls, they'll complain about how none of the guys start conversations with them.
[Scot McKay]: Yeah, that's right.
[Angel Donovan]: And so, this is going on a lot.
[Scot McKay]: Well, it's leadership. I mean, it's the leadership that turns women on. If you're not asking women out, if you're not initiating, if you're not holding a conversation, I got guys who are like, "Look, she needs to call me as much and text me as much as I text her." And some women literally will sit there and wait until you initiate the conversation, desperately hoping you will.
Meanwhile, the guy is like, "Oh, this woman isn't even interested or else she'd call me and she'd text me" or "Why doesn't she invite me out on a date and pay the bill?" or "Why didn't she approach me first? Why doesn't she tell me when she's horny? Why do I always have to do all the leading?" Well, because that's the order of the universe.
Leading isn't a drudgery, it isn't a job. It's power. It's power being handed to us that we should enjoy and use wisely. So yeah, I agree with everything you're saying and it just, the point is it pervades everything. It's the essence of what pervades everything that has to do with male/female relationships. It's all-powerful.
[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, absolutely. We've covered the leadership and responsibility area. One other thing, when conflicts come up in relationships. I think you're going to say that it doesn't come up in your relationship or something crazy like that. Piss everyone off.
[Scot McKay]: I wouldn't say that. No, no. I wouldn't say that.
[Angel Donovan]: This is the nature of things. We're going to have conflicts that come up, arguments and I think, a lot of people aren't sure how to navigate these in a way that's healthy for the relationship. How do you approach them? Doesn't it come up often for you? What do you think of...are you supposed to come up often in a relationship? Is that an issue or not?
[Scot McKay]: Well, I think of crucial importance is agreeing on the biggies in life, things like politics, religion, how to raise children, how to spend money versus save money, if you eat a lot of meat and she's a vegan. That kind of stuff, you've got to sort all that out before you decide to get into a relationship. Basic compatibility has to be there.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, the selection and I think the money thing, you kind of just jumped over there, is pretty important. If you've got different ideas about how to handle money or different responsibilities to money. People react very differently to money. So, I can think it can be one of the big issues that tear a lot of partnerships apart.
[Scot McKay]: Most definitely, most definitely, all under the umbrella of basic compatibility. Assuming you have all of those boxes checked, you get into a relationship, you're not going to agree on everything. I think the biggest indicator is how you handle those conflicts relative to your actual feelings towards each other and I can elaborate on that. I know that sounds a little esoteric.
Emily and I adore each other. We absolutely adore each other. I don't think she's an ugly bitch. I don't think she's a stupid whore. So, I've never in our nine-year history of me and her knowing each other every called her such things.
She doesn't think I'm a dick. She doesn't think I'm an asshole. She doesn't think I'm a lying, cheating bastard. So, guess what? She never calls me those things.
So, when we have disagreements on things like, I think we should do things this way or, "What the hell were you thinking when you did that earlier today? It embarrassed the hell out of me," or "How could you do this? How could you forget to do what I asked you when it was incredibly important?" We just hash those things out and we trust each other to let the emotions vent because, the emotions need to be vented. You can't just bottle things up.
Sometimes in a very manipulative relationship, someone like an alcoholic and a very demure wife for example, she'll just bottle everything up and take it because, she's afraid. And the guy will just keep hammering on her and the kids and make everybody feel terrible. When it's real one-sided like that, somebody's bottling something up and that's really, Man, when that explodes it's like a Molotov cocktail.
Emily and I definitely allow each other to vent. "How could you do this?" or "Why did you forget that?"
[Angel Donovan]: Are there boundaries? You can of set a boundary there which is no name calling.
[Scot McKay]: Well yes, that's what I'm saying. We don't ever insult each other. We don't ever hurt each other's feelings and that the trust is there. See, I trust. She's chosen me from many option years ago and we don't want to leave each other and vice versa. So, the trust is there that we're not going to hurt each other, that we still adore each other, that we would do this all over again which literally allows us to have this level of honesty that most people are deathly afraid of.
Like she comes out of the closet and she does not look good in those jeans, I will tell her. There are guys out there, "You got to be frickin crazy. That's rule number one, never tell her she looks fat in the jeans." I'll tell her she looks fat in the jeans. She'll tell me what she needs to tell me.
She'll come out and I'll cook Indian food the night before. I'll come out in the morning and she'll go, "You know, your breath still smells like Indian food. Go back there and scrub your mouth." I go, "God, really?" "Oh yeah, I wouldn't lie to you." I know she wouldn't lie to me and it isn't to hurt my feelings. It's we're looking out for each other.
She'll be like, that shirt looks terrible with those jeans. I'm making it sound like my wife is a nagging bitch. This almost never happens. It's like, "How do I look?" "Oh my God, you look great! Oh my gosh, I'm so proud to married to a guy like you. You have so much class and style."
That's the way it usually is but see, I know she's not B.S.ing me when she says that because, I'm held accountable for the times somethings got to give and vice versa. So, when she comes out looking just ravishing, I'll go bite her on the neck like a vampire and meow at her and she giggles because, she knows it's coming from a position of authenticity. I mean it and that feels great. So, that's how all that's how all that works and so, when conflicts happen, they're just a part of it.
[Angel Donovan]: So, I think we should go over that because, that's something I haven't heard put that way before in the way you were talking about authenticity and its power. You're basically explaining that because you're authentic, everything you say is more powerful.
[Scot McKay]: Yes!
[Angel Donovan]: It has more emotional power to it for the woman and she's going to feel it more.
[Scot McKay]: Yeah, another thing we don't do is yell and scream. We don't just get violently emotional at each other. Now a lot of it has to do with the fact that we have kids.
[Angel Donovan]: You guys do sound pretty mature.
[Scot McKay]: We are.
[Angel Donovan]: You know, in your relationship. I don't think everyone's as gifted handling relationships first off the bat and there'll be name-calling and things like that. So, you've set some pretty good boundaries. What other kinds of boundaries do you think you naturally set as you were getting into a relationship from both your sides that set it out to be healthy.
[Scot McKay]: Well, we respect are sexual attraction towards each other in a way that I don't gawk at women when I'm in front of Emily. She doesn't go, "Oh my God, that guy's so hot." We don't flirt openly with other people sexually when we're in public together.
[Angel Donovan]: I would say important for girlfriends, boyfriends, that's probably one of the basic rules unless you've got a specific polyamory...
[Scot McKay]: It's respect.
[Angel Donovan]: ...like you've got a deal where you've set that type of relationship and that's what you're in for and you've spoken about it.
[Scot McKay]: Yeah, that's right and yet, we're not jealous. We're not stupidly jealous. Like, we'll be watching a T.V. show or a movie or something and Emily will elbow me in the ribs and go, "Oh God, she's your type" and I'll go, "You got it" and I'll do the same thing to her. I'll say, "Now, you got to think he's hot. That's your guy right there." "Yeah, yeah, I think he's dreamy."
We'll talk like that but see, you mentioned something very interesting and that's the idea of how you set the relationship up. Is it polyamorous or whatever? Emily and I are monogamous. Ain't nobody got time for other people in our relationship around here but, here's something that not a lot people know about our relationship, she's free to go and so am I.
We do not enter into this relationship feeling like we own each other or we've locked each other down. I will never call her "my ball and chain" or anything ridiculous like that. By the way, that's a nice little aside. I probably should have mentioned that under the last segment here is that, I respect her with my words and my thoughts when she's not around.
[Angel Donovan]: Right.
[Scot McKay]: Like, "When the bitch leaves, we don't like call her a bitch" or something like that. You know. It's like, "Oh yeah, my old lady at home, my old damned ball and chain, make sure she doesn't know what I just said about her."
I talk about Emily in glowing terms because, that's how I feel about her. I really adore that little chick and she doesn't do anything to make me bitter. She only does things to bring value to my life because, I'm leading with that value. It goes back to leadership again.
I'm adding value to her life and I get return, I reap what I sow. So, when I'm out with other people, if I know they don't want to hear how much I love my wife and it's going to make them poke their eye balls out with hot skewers or something, I just don't go there but, you know, the ball and chain conversation is non-existent in my life.
There's no such thing. It's an unthinkable conversation. It's not even one I would fake having to make other guys around me feel secure or whatever. Now, I hear it all the time and I nod my head and I laugh with them but, I'm not going to participate.
So, one of the things is, like I said, Emily and I don't own each other. We're both there by choice. We haven't locked each other down. We're not slaves here. It isn't like, "Oh man, I wish I could go out and screw a bunch of chicks."
Now, would it be great to screw some chicks? Yes. Do I see naked women on my computer screen and stop and go, "Wow, she's looking pretty good with the rest of every guy in the world?" I'm going to be honest with you, of course but see, I've made a decision.
What lifestyle do I want? Do I want to go and bang a bunch of chicks? Do I want to go and find a bisexual chick who will bring me more chicks and we have kind like a circle? Do I want a chick who I can live the lifestyle with and we can be swingers?
Or would I really just like to have this one woman I adore, build a family and build, damn it, a rather conventional lifestyle? Now, conventional sounds like it rhymes with boring but, you have to understand, Emily and I knock stuff off our bucket list constantly.
We travel the world. We do adventures. We fly in planes and go racing stuff and are teaching our kids to be the same way. My life got more adventurous and more amazing. I'm doing more things that I've always wanted to do, having more fun since I've married her and even more so since we started making more babies.
So, a lot of that also is unthinkable to guys but, when you marry the right woman and you have that trust and you have that relationship and you don't feel locked down, the environment of fun is there. Now, why don't Emily and I leave each other? Because we still adore each other.
I mean, I was dating several women at once when I met Emily and my criterion for getting into an exclusive relationship with that woman was, every night, I'm going to pick which woman I'd like to spend time with and she was winning every night. I just didn't want other women anymore. She won.
She trumped them all and I did that for her so, we chose each other. Nobody's chasing each other here. Nobody's begging the other one to be with them. We both chose each other and you know what, we have this relationship. It's been spoken.
Look, if you want some strange dick, tell me. Don't cheat on me and vice versa. If she needs to screw another guy. If she wants another sexual experience, I mean, don't cheat on me. Tell me. We'll figure it out and yet, we don't. We stay with each other but, we have that level of honesty and that sounds incredibly frightening and perhaps, it might even sound wrong to some people.
We are committed to each other but, we've affirmed to each other that's by choice not because we've been compelled or we've signed a marriage agreement that forces us into anything. So, I think that's very important to know. We're both here by choice and that's makes our relationship that much better.
[Angel Donovan]: You've got a uniquely honest relationship. I think that's something we have to fight for these days. It's important when we first set up the relationship, when we first start it. The girl has to be comfortable in being honest with you and I think we've spoken about this before on the show, anytime you show you're being judgmental or judging her feelings or judging things about her, you're going to ruin that honesty.
The type of relationship you're talking about right there, you're not going to be able to have it. She's probably going to have an affair behind your back than be honest if you set up this environment where she's judged and she doesn't feel safe and it's a pretty delicate thing in my experience. I don't know about you.
[Scot McKay]: It comes from an honest position of adoration and respect. If there's this disconnect, that's going to throw a wrench in the respect, that's where what you're talking about is going to start rearing its ugly head in a relationship. So again, if you go all the way back, it comes down to not getting into this relationship unless you're in the relationship with the right person.
[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. I was thinking exactly the same thing. I think for most people, its because they chose the wrong person and it's not a good fit and they're not happy. They kind of didn't take responsibility for making the right choice.
[Scot McKay]: I think an overwhelming majority of couples settled which is sad and which is probably, if you wanted me to boil down my mission statement for everything we do and everything that drives me and motivates as part of my life purpose, it's to keep people from settling and to find the right person instead. That's it. That's the most important.
[Angel Donovan]: Well Scot, thank you so much for this chat today. It's been really good to have someone with so much experience on the show. Mr. 48-Years-Old.
[Scot McKay]: I think that sounded like old to me.
[Angel Donovan]: When I'm 48, I'm going to be like, "Ahhhhh!" Fortunately, there's anti-aging stuff coming down the road pretty soon.
[Scot McKay]: You can have a beer once and a while, you can have a hamburger once in a while but, I'll tell you what, if you take care of yourself and you live a clean life and you stay positive...I think your attitude has so much to do with your health and how you look at your age and how you feel.
[Angel Donovan]: I absolutely agree. It sounds like you're in good order. Not like I can see you face-to-face but, you sound like in good health which I'm sure you are.
So, a couple last questions to round off. Who besides yourself would you recommend for high quality advice in any area of dating or sexual relationships?
[Scot McKay]: Man, that's a great question. I get asked a lot of times what I think of other gurus and I'm going to have to be honest with you. It's kind of my policy not to...
[Angel Donovan]: Tell it like it is.
[Scot McKay]: The way I'm going to look at it, if they've been on my pod cast or if I talk about them in my newsletters, if I'm happy to tell you about their new product or whatever, I respect what they're doing.
Other than that, I'm going to say, anybody who disrespects women, anybody who is more focused on the marketing aspect than the actual teaching aspect is unfortunate and I'm not going to clutter our world with that kind of noise and I'm sorry how that sounds but, I try to keep things on the up and up and I want to be honest. I want to talk about what works, not what sells necessarily because, those aren't always the same thing.
But, I've collaborated with a number people in the past. I think what you're doing with your site and your straight-forward way of talking Angel, is exemplary and I also believe in a very straightforward pragmatic way of talking. So, sometimes people get really into the "woo, woo" stuff and I get along with those guys and everything but, I just really like...
[Angel Donovan]: What is "woo, woo" like spiritual or...?
[Scot McKay]: Like guruish kind of stuff. "I've got to talk really profound or Eastern about this" when really it's just, "Hey, you know, men and women just need to get along and here's how you do it."
I will tell you two things and the one probably won't surprise you, the second might surprise you. After all my years of doing this, I can tell by the way they teach which dating advisors are really good with women versus those who are faking it and I can tell which sex advisors have small penises.
Please don't ask me to elaborate but, I think it's an amazing, amazing consistency through that. You can tell by how sex teachers teach about sex, if their male sex teachers, whether they have small penises or not.
[Angel Donovan]: Just out of interest what would be the criteria? What are you watching for in the teaching?
[Scot McKay]: I'll give you a hint, it's how they talk to men about penis size.
[Angel Donovan]: Ahh, huh. I think everyone probably gets the idea there. So, next question, top three recommendations to help men get results as fast as possible with women in this area of their lives basically to improve it. What would be your top three recommendations for them to get started, for someone completely new to this and they want to fix it as soon as possible as men always do? What would be your recommendations to get that started quickly.
[Scot McKay]: Top three, first of all, never ever apologize for being a man. You should be a man. You should be nothing other than a man. You don't have to be a woman with a penis. You don't have to be neutered. You don't have to tone it down. You don't have to soften yourself.
Remember always, manhood at its root is virtuous. It isn't like men and women are opposite and therefore, men and women have to be the opposite. Men are bad, women are good. That's a logical fallacy. Masculinity is virtue. Virtuous masculinity is a high calling and it's something you should embrace.
Second of all, the number one differentiator between guys who have woman in their life and guys who don't, and there's not even a close second place, is boldness. I wish I had $10 for every guy whose ever said, "Well you know, I can't get any women to go out with me." "Well, how many women have you asked out?" "Uh, none."
And I wish I had another $10 for every time I've ever gone to a party and there's this hot chick with an average guy and someone blurts out, "What's a girl like you doing with a guy like that?" and the girl goes, "Well, he asked me out."
Boldness, are you asking women out or aren't you? Do you believe these women will go out with you or don't you? That is the hugest and yet the most simplistic differentiator between guys who are getting women and guys who don't. So guys, go for it.
What's the worst thing that can really happen? You're not bothering them. They're not going to reject you really hard and be mean to you unless you really deserve it, Okay?
I've done in-field coaching now for 8 years and by now, you've got a grip on how I teach. I teach respect for women. I teach giving them space. I teach letting your masculinity do the heavy lifting. I have yet to ever see a "hard rejection" ever in eight years in the field, ever. And I haven't seen one since I was a seventh grader and stupid, personally. So, that's the second one.
Third one, chose women who like men. Like women and let them like you back. We're not supposed to be enemies. This isn't an adversarial thing where we're going to seduce and conquer these bitches. Women want to love you. Women want to suck your dick. Women want to sexually thrill you and they want you to be thrilled with them.
Pick a woman who's not broken. Pick a woman who's healthy and be that guys who's not broken. Be that guy who's not bitter towards her. There's no better chance at a great relationship when a man who loves women and a woman who loves men get together and they really appreciate each other and want the best for each other.
[Angel Donovan]: That was a great point, Man. That's a great note to finish off on.
[Scot McKay]: Cool.
[Angel Donovan]: Thank you so much for your time.
[Scot McKay]: You're quite welcome.
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DSR Podcast is a weekly podcast where Angel Donovan seeks out and interviews the best experts he can find from bestselling authors, to the most experienced people with extreme dating lifestyles. The interviews were created by Angel Donovan to help you improve yourself as men - by mastering dating, sex and relationships skills and get the dating life you aspire to.
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