Ep. #63 How to Sexualize Conversations with Jonathan Lee (Jon Sinn)

[Angel Donovan] Jon, great to have you back on the show. It's been quite a while. You were on back in Episode 38, so that's quite a while back, on conversation skills. How're you doing?

[Jon Sinn] Good man, thanks for having me.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah it's great to have you back. So today what I wanted to talk to you about is making conversations sexual, making interactions sexual, which I know is a big part of your seduction roadmap, a big part of what you do. So, to start with, what is a sexualized conversation?

[Jon Sinn] Sure. One of the things that I think a lot of guys struggle with is how do we get a conversation sexual, right? You've built attraction, you've qualified the girl, you've built some comfort.

Now you're talking to a girl... Forty-five minutes, an hour into the conversation, and you haven't really turned things sexual. And at a certain point, before you start escalating physically, you're going to turn things sexual so that it's not some sort of big surprise by the time you try to get her back to your house and start to move things in that direction.

So, when it comes to turning a conversation sexual, there's a bunch of tools and processes for doing it, and that's kind of what we'll be discussing today. But the idea is that you have to do it. You have to sexualize your conversations. And I think a lot of guys, they either don't do it at all, they either just think "Okay, well if I never bring up sex, then somehow when we get back to my house, it'll just magically happen," which is a bad strategy.

Or they go the complete 180 from that, and they think that if they tell the girl they want to fuck her, or they say sexual things kind of out-of-the-blue, that that's going to work too. And both of those strategies are really wrong and don't really help to move things in the right direction. So what I'm going to be talking about today is how to do that the right way.

[Angel Donovan] Okay, so it sounds like it's basically a way to make the interaction smoother, so the girl knows what to expect coming down the line. And she's getting with that kind of gear of the flow, which you're expecting, rather than shocking her, and maybe making her uncomfortable by surprising her with it later.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, I would totally agree with that, yeah. It's about kind of slowly introducing sex in a variety of ways in the conversation, so that there is no big shift or change when you start to try to get sexual. So she kind of knows what to expect, right? And that's the whole basis behind the technique of sexual framing, is the idea that if you can get a woman to accept some sexual frames, then it only makes sense for the two of you to get sexual later.

[Angel Donovan] So, why wouldn't guys bring up this earlier in the conversation? You said a lot of guys don't bring this up, why is that?

[Jon Sinn] I think a lot of the time guys are nervous about coming off as, like, a pervert, or coming off in a way that's unattractive, or in a way that's going to blow their chances.

Other guys have sexual anxiety, and they're just uncomfortable talking about sex and sexual relationships in general. Still other guys think they're going to play, like, the good guy, or nice guy role, and that that's going to help them to get girls. But none of that actually will help, so there's no real upside to not introducing sex as a topic in your conversations. It really just kind of messes you up.

[Angel Donovan] Right. Are there any downsides to introducing it?

[Jon Sinn] Well there's downsides to introducing it the wrong way. You can definitely blow yourself out if you do this too early in an interaction. Very few things will blow you out as quickly as trying to get sexual too early in the interaction before the woman's attracted to you, before she's comfortable talking to you.

And then just doing it in a kind of ham-fisted way also doesn't help. Guys are very direct in their communication styles, and women are a lot more subtle. So just saying, like, "I really want to fuck you," that's not going to help you, like almost ever. But that would be a way of, quote-unquote, sexualizing a conversation.

So it's about doing it in the right way, at the right time. And I think that's part of why guys don't do it, is they don't know when the right time is, and they don't know what the right way is to do those things.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah, sounds like it's awkwardness mostly. But in fact you create more awkwardness by not bringing this up, because it becomes a surprise later.

So does this play a role, at all, in attraction? When you're making conversations more sexual, does it also play a role in getting the woman more attracted to you at the same time? Because here what we've been talking about basically is a way to smoothly introduce sex down the road, so it's comfortable, and it works out for both, for the girl as well, and it's a comfortable situation for her. But does it play any role in the actual attraction vibe between you as well?

[Jon Sinn] It can. As you get better, you can introduce this stuff earlier and earlier. I mean, what is attraction? Attraction is an emotion. There's a lot of ways to build that emotion of, "I want more of this," or, "I'm interested in this."

Sexual attraction is a type of attraction. There's no one-size-fits-all type of attraction. There's value-based attraction, there's physical attraction, there's sexual attraction. There's a lot of different types of attraction, right?

You can use sexuality to build a certain type of attraction. Is it necessary, every time, to get a woman attracted? No. Are there going to be some women who are not attracted to that type of attraction style? Absolutely.

But, it definitely can be worked into your attraction game, but I would say that's kind of a more advanced type of thing. If you're just kind of starting out, or if you're still having trouble getting attraction, you don't really want to focus on trying to get sexual attraction, as much as trying to focus on trying to get attraction emotionally through emotional fluidity, rather than trying to get sexual.

[Angel Donovan] Right. So, what you're saying about this is that you have a sexual vibe, and that's attractive to women. Is that basically what sexual attraction is?

[Jon Sinn] Yes and no. I think that's a bit reductive. A sexual vibe could be good or bad. There are guys who have bad sexual vibes, there are guys who have good sexual vibes. Sexual attraction comes from basically creating attraction as an emotion. The overall idea of creating attraction is the idea the idea of creating this emotion, and this emotion is, "I want more of that."

When you are creating sexual attraction, what you're doing is you're creating that emotion of wanting in the woman, but specifically around the topic of sex and sexuality. For example, if I'm talking to a woman and I start flirting with her, and I start saying things like, "Clearly your boyfriend doesn't spank you enough," or I tell a sexual story, and she laughs and starts to become attracted, then that's going to be sexual attraction.

The attraction, that emotion of wanting, has been creating around the basis of sexual conversation, rather than around the basis of me controlling her emotions, or me demonstrating a lot of value, or me physically being her type. That make sense?

[Angel Donovan] Yeah that does make a lot of sense. Another element I wanted to kind of clear up here is, we talk a lot about getting physical, and how that's important to creating a sexual interaction between you and the girl as well.

Is this completely separate to that? Is a sexual conversation something you should start at the time as getting a little bit physical. Like, basically a bit more touchy, so that that doesn't become a shock either? Or, are there different times to introduce this? Are they separate things, or should they be done together?

[Jon Sinn] Getting physical... The way I think about that is, there's three things going at all times in an interaction with a woman. There's your verbal track, what you're talking about, which is what we're talking about, is turning that sexual.

Then there's physical touching. You know, you're always touching, and touching is always going to be an expression of intimacy and sexuality.

And then there's logistics. When you're really going sexual, like, talking, it can sometimes be a good idea to pull back on the touching, because you don't want to go too far.

There's a balancing act when you're turning things sexual. You want to get her turned on, but you don't want to create a sexual threat, where she feels, like, "Okay, right now, I have to get sexual or this interaction's over."

So, I like to balance it out. I like to... If I'm touching her a lot, and if things are kind of physically progressing very fast, then I'm going to probably dial back the sexual talking, because she gets what's happening physically. Like, if we're making out a lot, if I'm like pulling her hair, if I'm touching her body, feeling her legs, stuff like that. Then, I don't nearly need as much of the turning the conversation sexual, because there's already a very sexual vibe that's being established.

On the other hand, if I'm turning the conversation really sexual, and I'm doing, like, dirty talk and stuff like that, I may really cut down to a bare minimum amount of touching, because I don't want to just go too far too fast, and create that sexual threat, which will make her uncomfortable.

You never want to present the option for sex until you're somewhere, logistically, where sex can happen. So if I go too far too fast... I mean, if you do things like trying to finger girls in clubs... I mean, that can work, but a lot of the time that will also end up with the girl leaving you, or you getting cockblocked because you've just gone too far, too fast.

So it's really kind of a pacing issue there. What time of the night is it? Do I have logistics? Is she with a group? Is there going to be cockblocks? You don't really want to pour it on super heavy until you basically are at the point where you're trying to pull the girl out of the club.

[Angel Donovan] So here we're talking about the physical escalation aspect of it?

[Jon Sinn] Well I'm taking about the combination.

[Angel Donovan] Okay. So could you overdo it if you're not in the right logistical situation? Could you overdo with it the verbal aspect as well, just purely?

[Jon Sinn] You can always overdo it by messing up the pacing. What I'm talking about here is the pacing of the interaction. You have to look at how she's responding to all of this stuff.

If she's responding really well, and she's going with everything you're doing, then you can go faster. But if she's kind of touch-and-go, then you need to balance out getting super sexual with releasing, with teasing, and with pushing her away both physically and verbally.

Because you can't just pull, pull, pull. You can't just pour on the sexuality, and pour on the touching, unless the girl is really ready to leave with you. If you do that too early on, you're going to creep the girl out, and it's going to be too much, too soon, and then she's going to want to leave the interaction.

So, it's a balancing act between the verbal and the physical, and obviously you can overdo either of them if you just keep doing them, and you're not kind of using checks and balances. So verbally that means using teases, using releases, using barriers, in order to take away the sexual threat.

There's a big difference between, "I want to bend you over and fuck you," and, "If nobody was here right now, I would bend you over this table." One is a direct sexual threat, the other has a barrier involved which allows it to become something a girl can enjoy without it being immediately sexually threatening, and without it making her make a yes or no decision about sex right away.

So, same thing physically. When you're pulling a girl, and you're making out, and you're doing all that stuff, you also need to stop at certain points and push her away, in order to create a tension that allows you to go further.

So when it comes to verbal sexualization and touching, it depends on where you're at in the interaction, but you want to be able to use both of those to kind of balance. If I'm going very sexual verbally, I'm probably going to dial down the sexual touching. If I'm going very sexual touching, I'm probably going to dial down the verbal sexual stuff, to create that balance, and not make her feel threatened.

[Angel Donovan] So the key word is definitely "balance" here. That's come up a lot. You don't want to push it too far.

So in a minute I'd like to talk about how you know where that balance is, because obviously I think that's going to be one of the main issues guys come up with, like, putting too much in, or putting too little in.

But first of all, we'll look at a few examples, so they really get it concrete in their minds what we're talking about in terms of sexualizing conversations here. I mean you've already thrown a couple out, but do you have any framework, or different options, different approaches, for this?

[Jon Sinn] Sure, and I'll share a couple of sexual frames, and I'll share a couple of things I do to sexualize the conversation.

One of the best things I use is what's called the Strawberry Fields Test, and this is a great way to sexualize an interaction, and so basically I'll do this... It's also a really good way to isolate... So I'll do this maybe five to ten minutes into a conversation.

I'll say, "You know what, you seem really cool, but I'm not sure about you yet. I'm going to have to give you my 'Cool Girl' test," and I'll pretend like I'm thinking about what kind of a test I'm going to have her, and I'll go, "You know what, I'm going to give you my Strawberry Fields Test."

So, you want to do this in isolation. You want to use this as an excuse to, like, move her away, even if it's just a few feet, to where her friends can't hear. So then I'll sit her down, and I'll go, "Okay, I want you to imagine you're walking down the street, and you come to a fence. How high would your fence be?"

The mistake a lot of guys make with these kind of routines, and these kind of tests, is they try to actually, like, analyze the girl. You don't want to do that. You want to just say the exact same thing, no matter what any of her answers are, and I'll explain how to do that in a minute.

So I'll say, "Okay, so you climb the fence. Now you're in a strawberry field. How many strawberries do you eat?" And whatever she says, I'm going to kind of shake my head, like, "Oh man, you're bad news."

Then I'll go, "And what about the farmer?" And the phrasing, "What about the farmer?" is very important, because we're trying to lead her to a specific answer. We want her to say something like, "Fuck the farmer. I don't care about him," or, "I'll pay him." Something like that.

So then I'll go, "Alright, you ready for what all that means?" She'll say, "Yeah," and I'll go "Absolutely nothing." I always like to joke. Whenever you're doing tests, it's good to keep it a little lighter, rather than take it super serious.

So your fence is your goals and aspirations. So you set the bar high, but not so high you can't achieve it. So, again, doesn't matter if her fence is a foot, or a hundred thousand feet, I'm always going to say, "The fence is your goals and aspirations. You set the bar high, but not so high you can't achieve it."

Now the strawberries. Now, again, doesn't matter if she said a hundred strawberries, doesn't matter if she said, "I'll take a bite of a strawberry." No matter what she says, I'm going to say the same thing. So I'll say, "You said four strawberries. Most people only have one or two. That means you have, like, a really high sex drive, and you're sexually aggressive with people you're attracted to."

Now, if you remember, at the beginning of this interview I said you want to use sexualizing a conversation after you have attraction. Here's an example of why. If I say this before she's attracted to me, she's not going to apply that to me. If I have already gotten her attracted to me, now I'm framing her as being sexually aggressive with people she's attracted to.

Sexually aggressive, just by itself... That's not the best thing to frame a girl for, because that just kind of gets taken as slutty, or a bunch of negative connotations to just sexually aggressive. Sexually aggressive with someone you're attracted to, that's something she can get behind. And if she's already attracted to me, now there's this implied idea that she can be sexually aggressive with me.

Now, the reason I said, "What about the farmer?" is I want her to just kind of blow off the farmer. So, whatever she says, I'm going to say, "Yeah. The farmer is society's rules and restrictions about sex and sexual relationships, and you said, 'Fuck the farmer,' so I have to be careful with you when the lights are out."

And that's it. So what I've done there is I've set three pretty important frames, all through a test. And the other great thing about this is, I'm not doing any of this. The great thing about using tests is that I'm not saying she's sexually aggressive, it's just the test. I'm not saying that she doesn't care about society's rules and restrictions about sex, it's just the test. So, there's a little more authority to it, and it's a little less me trying to tell her she's these things.

So that's one good thing I'll use. Another thing I'll use is a tactic I call Fast Forward Rewind. Fast Forward Rewind is basically a tactic where I'm going to overdo the sexuality, then I'm going to rewind it to, like, more of a typical kind of gender role, and then I'm going to fast forward again.

This is a really good way to start playing with sexuality. So, I might say something like, "You know what, you're totally awesome. I'm totally going to marry you, and then we can totally have threesomes with, like, your sisters and stuff." That's a fast forward. Basically, I've started with a typical kind of gender relation of getting married, a typical role-play, and then I've turned it really sexual.

Now what's going to happen is she's going to go, "No! No! We can't do that!" and now I'm going to rewind again, and I'll go, "Oh yeah, no. I mean, we totally wouldn't do it, like, our wedding night or something. It'd have to be twenty years down the line. But I am expecting anal, like, on our first date."

And by fast forwarding and rewinding, I can play this game. The girl gets it. It's funny, and it's allowing me to sexualize the conversation, again without directly sexually threatening her, without directly saying, "These are the things I want to do to you right now."

And it allows me to make humor, and humor is the best way to start introducing sexuality into a conversation. It's always the best way to do that, because it's not threatening, it's not serious, but you are talking about sex.

If you start to try to discuss sex in a really serious way, girls can be creeped out. But if you make jokes about it, you're never going to creep a girl out, and you're getting her to think about sex, and that's really one of the keys when it comes to getting the conversation sexual.

[Angel Donovan] Great man, thanks for those examples. They're really clear. I remember the Strawberry Fields routine from way back when I first started this as well, so it's been going strong for a long time now. That's good to see.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, I think that version's a little different than the one that's been around for a while, because the original one, I think, is just kind of a way to analyze girls or whatever. But that one is more a specific routine for sexualizing an interaction.

[Angel Donovan] As you were saying it, I was thinking it's a lot about teasing. I mean, you're using her responses to tease in a sexual way.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, absolutely.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah, great. Another thing I was thinking about is, basically this is all about bringing up sexual topics, and as you said, in a funny way. Is there any times that you don't bring them up in a funny, humorous way?

[Jon Sinn] Yeah. As the interaction gets longer, and more comfort is built, more rapport is built, then I'll stop bringing up sex in a funny way, and I'll kind of turn things more into just talking about sex in a matter-of-fact way.

So, I might say, like... One thing I do a lot is, I try to inoculate for last minute resistance, because last minute resistance is the worst thing in the world. So basically, later on in the interaction, after we've been making out, as I'm trying to set up my pull or whatever, I want to start inoculating for last minute resistance.

So I'll start talking about sex in a more matter-of-fact way. I'll say something like, "One of my biggest turn-offs..." Either I'll ask the girl what her biggest turn-off is, or I'll just start talking about my biggest turn-off.

And I'll say, "You know, one of my biggest turn-offs is feeling like I want someone more than they want me. You know, like, if I get the sense that I'm more into something than the girl, then I'm just completely turned off, and I'm really not into it."

And the reason I say this is because I'm setting things up for later, so that if she does give any last minute resistance, I can just tell her I'm going to be done. And the reason for this is because I've had a lot of experience with last minute resistance. I've had years where I probably had seventy-five percent of the girls in my bed not end up sleeping with me. It was, like, really big numbers.

I remember specifically in 2005, I slept with like fifty-six girls that year, but I probably had, like, close to two hundred girls in my bed, and just couldn't get through the last minute resistance with a lot of them.

And, I finally just gave up doing last minute resistance, like, two years ago... Maybe like four years ago now.

I met this girl, this nineteen-year-old chick, at the mall. And I ended up pulling her from the mall to my house, and I spent like eight hours in bed with her, like, trying to get through last minute resistance.

[Angel Donovan] That's embarrassing!

[Jon Sinn] Literally from like 10pm to like 6am. And I finally ended up having sex with her, and afterwards, I didn't feel good about it. I was just, like, "That was so stupid." So I just decided I wasn't going to do it anymore.

And I wanted to get that idea out really early on, so I'll say, "You know, I don't do the high school thing, the, like, 'Let's dry hump and not have sex.' I'm just totally not into that. If you don't want to have sex that's totally fine, but I don't like to do that in-between gray area." And I'll say that pretty matter-of-factly to a girl forty-five minutes, an hour in.

And they'll agree. And then what that does is it sets up... One of the things with sexual framing, and framing in general, is it sets up a way to put social pressure on people later in interactions. So, later in the interaction, if we're, like, in bed, and I try to take her shirt off, or her pants off, and she's like, "Oh, I don't really know about this," I'm like, "You know what, cool. No problem. Like I told you, I'm not into trying to force myself on people, it's a big turn-off to me. So let's just stop."

And I'll actually stop. It's not like a freeze-out, or any of those kinds of tactics where you're stopping, but you're really not stopping, you're really just kind of taking a five minute break.

I'm willing to let it go, because in my experience, there's two types of last minute resistance. There's last minute resistance from girls who actually don't do stuff like this. You know, a lot of the dating coaches and pick-up guys, they want to believe that every girl has one night stands, and every girl does stuff like that.

And in my experience, it's not a hundred percent true. It's a very small percentage of the population that doesn't, but they do exist. There are girls who just don't do stuff like that, and she's just not going to sleep with you no matter what you do. You can do a million freeze-outs, you can do all these tactics. Like, short of rape, she's just not going to sleep with you that night. With those girls, when you stop, that's what they really want, because they weren't going to go further anyway.

And then there's the other type of girls, and I would say this is probably, like, ninety-five percent of girls. They want to have sex, but they want you to respect them, and they want you to not feel like they were too easy. And so they feel like they have to give that last minute resistance to feel like they're not going to be that easy. But they actually do want to have sex.

So with those girls, when you stop, they're going to re-initiate, and they're going to be like, "We don't have to stop." And what happens a lot, and it's really interesting, because I get a very specific set of phrases, is I always tell girls, "Don't do anything you're not comfortable with."

I'm like, "Look, I'm not here to try to make you do something you're not comfortable with, it's a really big turn-off to me if you're not super into this. So let's just stop." And almost always, the girls who are in that second case, that ninety-five percent of girls who want to have sex but just kind of want to make you work for it, or make them feel respected, whatever... They'll say, "No. You know what, I am comfortable, I just didn't think I would be comfortable this fast." That's the exact set of wording I get almost every time.

That's kind of an example of a more serious way of talking about sex. And I'll say, "Look, obviously I want to sleep with you, but I don't want you to do anything that makes you uncomfortable, and I don't want you to feel any sort of pressure. I still am going to, like, think you're cool if we don't have sex tonight, so don't take it any sort of way."

That to me has eliminated... Like, I never get LMR... Not never, but I've had it like twice in the last four years, where girls are like, "Okay, cool. I'm ready to leave." Because most of the time they just want to deal with that whole respect, not feeling bad about doing what they want to do, issue.

[Angel Donovan] Okay, great man. That really clears it up, and thanks for the whole point on last minute resistance. Those are some interesting numbers you throw out there. Ninety-five percent of women you think it's more of a respect issue, versus the five percent. Those five percent, have they got certain personalities or characters? Like, could you spot them earlier on? Just so guys can get ideas around that.

[Jon Sinn] It's difficult to pinpoint, because sometimes those girls will be really into you, and they'll seem like they're totally ready to go. And then you get them into bed, and it's just, like, complete kind of freeze-up.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah. Is it their backgrounds, do you think? Like their values, their backgrounds?

[Jon Sinn] Probably. I mean, I think some girls are just a little more cautious with getting sexual. Some girls don't want to sleep with a lot of guys, or they don't have that much experience doing it. They don't feel that comfortable doing it.

They've kind of already made a decision. In their minds, the decision has already been made. It's more like a logic, versus emotion thing. They're not operating fully on emotions, they're operating on this logical basis that, "I'm not the type of person who does that." So I think it's more, like, an identity kind of thing.

I've noticed it mostly in girls who have more education, who are a little less into the party lifestyle, and a little more into more intellectual pursuits. The last girl I got last minute resistance from, she was a sailing coach and comes from old money in Boston, and is in law school, and was a teacher for special ed students. So I think...

[Angel Donovan] I would agree by the way, on those kind of personality traits, and that kind of background you just brought up. I've seen something similar.

[Jon Sinn] But on the flip-side, my last really long-term girlfriend also went to grad school, was a special ed teacher as well, and I slept with her the first night. And she's a very sexual girl.

So yeah, I think they are just kind of an anomaly who are out there. It's not a huge percentage of women, like I said, but they do exist.

It's not always your fault if you get a girl into the bedroom and you can't make things happen. Sometimes you just have those types of girls who are not going to do stuff like that.

[Angel Donovan] I'm glad we came onto this topic, because I was going to bring it up for the sexual conversation aspect. I'm sure some guys are going to say it's not all women who have these sexual sides, that are comfortable with sexual conversation.

One phrase I think I saw in one of your courses is, you say, "All women have sexual sides. They are just selective about who sees it."

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, absolutely. I think even those girls have sexual sides. With those girls, I think it's a timing thing. They're not going to, like, sleep with you on the first date, or on the night they meet you, but they still have a sexual side. It's not like they're asexual, it's just, for them, it's more of a weird thing.

[Angel Donovan] It's a slower process, I think. It just literally is they're going to have to see you two or three times. It's a different speed of a process.

[Jon Sinn] I think they have a certain amount of time they need to know someone before they're going to get sexual. But all women have sexual sides, and I mean, honestly, a girl who's not comfortable discussing sex, even on the first meeting, is probably going to be really boring and bad in bed.

Because the discussion of it, especially when you're doing it the ways we're talking about on this audio, is not threatening. It's not, like... Are you going to be able to discuss what her favorite positions are, with every girl? No, of course not. But bringing it up in a funny way, talking about the LMR inoculation, doing the Strawberry Fields Test, teasing her sexually, using stuff like Fast Forward Rewind, all that stuff...

If a girl is, like, getting offended at that, number one, she's not attracted to you at all. Because if a girl were attracted to you, she'll kind of roll with all of that stuff just because she likes you. Number two, she might have some sort of emotional or sexual issues, because, again, none of this stuff is offensive. None of this is me saying, like, "Oh, I'm going to fuck your brains out," or, like, talking about dick size, or asking her if she shaves her pussy, or anything that could really be offensive.

One of the things I pride my stuff on, is it's never going to get you in trouble with women. I know other guys who teach stuff, their students get kicked out of the mall, or, like, they have girls throw drinks on them.

That stuff never happens to my students, because all of my stuff is pretty subtle. I'm never going to have you go out there and just be cavemanning chicks, or, like, rubbing your dick against them, because that stuff doesn't work, and it's stupid, for lack of a better word.

So if a girl's really getting offended by any of the stuff I teach, I think that that says more about her than it does about you. Because some girls, guys really shouldn't be trying to turn the conversation sexual.

Can you do it sometimes? Sure. Do I break that rule sometimes? Absolutely. But, as a good general rule, especially the newer you are to this stuff, especially if you're not the type of guy who's going out and having same-night lays on a regular basis, you want to really make sure the woman's attracted to you, isolated, and in a one-on-one conversation.

[Angel Donovan] So what would be something for them to keep in their head, so that they know... For a guy who's all new to this, and he's like, "Well I don't know." Like, "Okay, so I've got her isolated. She's on her own. She's talking to me. What little rule can I have in my head that she's attracted, and it's okay to start introducing this kind of conversation?"

[Jon Sinn] There's three basic ways to test attraction. Guys don't do this stuff, because they don't want to know the answer. I firmly believe that a lot of guys, they don't test attraction because they don't want to find out the girl's not attracted to them. Because they've been talking to her for twenty minutes, they want to really believe that she's attracted, and these tests, and trying to move things forward, they could reveal, "Oh, she's not actually into me."

So the three tests are, number one, touching. A woman can lie to you with words. A woman can work you for drinks. A woman can talk to you just to not be bored. But she's not going let you touch her, and she's not going to touch you, and respond positively to touching, if she's not into you. That's the number one sign if a girl's into you, how she reacts to your touching. If I touch her and she kind of moves away, or she gets tense, muscular tension, she kind of gets uncomfortable... She's not into me.

Second thing is qualification. Again, girls will talk to you all night, even if they're not interested, because of validation, because of boredom, because you're a nice guy, because you're somehow entertaining. Those are all things that will keep girls in a conversation with you, even if they're not into you. But they won't qualify themselves.

So when I say things, like, "What's your coolest quality? What's the best thing about you? What makes you special? What do you do for fun besides hanging out in bars? What's your best quality? What are the three coolest things about you? What do you have going for you more than your looks?" When I give hard qualifying questions, if a girl's not willing to answer those, she's not that into you.

And the third thing is movement. Moving the girl around. Moving her into isolation. If you've started talking to a group of three girls, and you were able to move her away from her friends, chances are she's probably into you, because she's not going to leave her friends if she isn't.

But guys really steadfastly refuse to use these tools, and I've seen it on boot camps, I've seen it in my private coaching students. I've seen it all the time, because they feel like they're losing something. Because if you try to touch and she's not into it, you might have to end the interaction. Or if you try to qualify, and she doesn't do it, you might have to end the interaction.

[Angel Donovan] So this is the underlying fear? Because when you talk about those things a lot, you say, the guy's just scared to touch, because it's something he doesn't do that often perhaps? Or maybe he cares too much about this one girl. So he's scared of that rejection, you're saying, and that's why he's not going for it?

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, exactly. There's two things at work here. The first one is what's called the male sexual over-perception bias. This is actually a real psychological thing, which says that when women speak to men and give men even the slightest courtesy, men are going to assume that they're interested in them.

So as dudes, we are biased. It's called the bias for a reason. We're biased towards believing that any time a girl's talking to us, or engaging with us, that she's interested, whether or not that's actually true. So that's the first thing.

The second thing is, you think she's interested, but you kind of know she maybe isn't that interested. Or you don't want to push it and risk ruining it. Guys think that having a conversation with a woman is some sort of prize. They think that, like, "Oh, well, if I can just keep this going, then maybe it'll get a little better."

But ironically, the way to make it better is through touching, qualification and movement. You're basically just treading water, rather than trying to move towards something. And you basically know when it's really on and when it's kind of touch-and-go, and a lot of guys who are practicing this stuff have a lot of touch-and-go interactions where they really don't want to mess up because they feel like, "I'm enjoying having this conversation. They're at least not rejecting me. They're at least open to something. Maybe if I just keep going and say the right thing, then this'll turn into something."

But at that point, it's not about saying the right thing, it's about testing for attraction. Because women will talk to you, and lie about being attracted, because they like the validation. Because they like the entertainment.

[Angel Donovan] So this is about the guys not wasting their time. So, not spending hours and hours with a girl who's really not that interested in them at all.

[Jon Sinn] Right, exactly. Without getting some solid feedback through touching, qualification and movement that she's actually into you.

[Angel Donovan] Great, great man. That was all very clear. Good stuff. So, I think we've kind of run the mill on this, with examples and everything. The one thing, like I said I wanted to come back to, was balance.

So once a guy has started introducing some of these, how does he stay away from going too far over the top? That's the main thing, right? Once he's done a bit of it, he's not really likely to let it go too low afterwards, or does that happen as well?

[Jon Sinn] Sometimes you can go too low. Sometimes you can start out really good... There's a couple of different things that happen, so I'll just list the various ways you can screw this up, and I'll kind of try to give some examples of how to avoid that.

One way that you can screw it up is by going too far in the humor. I've done this several times, where I've made so many sexual jokes that trying to gear down and actually get sexual... The girl's not taking it seriously, because you've been joking about it for too long.

So you want to joke about it in the beginning. Humor is really just a way to introduce sexuality, it's not the only way to do it. You don't want to keep making jokes and, like, talking about fucking her in the ass in a humorous way, or these over-the-top sexual things. Because then, you're either going to creep her out, or you're going to get stuck in this kind of funny sexual guy mode that isn't really helpful for moving things forward. So that's one mistake.

[Angel Donovan] Man, you just said something really explicit, so I just wanted to bring up the topic of, like... Is it okay to say, "Fuck in the ass," to any girl? Or would you modify the type of sexualization according to the girl?

[Jon Sinn] I would always modify it, but I'm just throwing that out as an example. I wouldn't say you want to be joking about that, I was just trying to give something that was really obvious and explicit.

One of the cardinal rules of pick-up that I always teach, is that you always want to modify to the girl who's in front of you. Because every girl is different. Some girls are going to get offended by things that are more explicit. Some girls are going to mock offense, because they're more gameplay. Some girls are going to think stuff like that's really funny.

So you've got to get a sense of, "Who am I dealing with? What type of girl am I dealing with? What type of girl is in front of me?"

The other thing guys will do, is they'll throw a little bit of sexuality out there, and then they'll shut it down, because they have trouble making that jump from humor to serious. So, again, you've got to make the move from humor to serious, and the way to do that is through statements of intent.

Saying things like, "I think you're really sexy." Saying things like, "Oh my God, you have no idea what I'm thinking about right now." Saying things like, "If nobody was here right now, you don't even know what I would want to do to you." Saying things like, "You know, I have ideas for what am I going to do with you. I have ideas, but they're not appropriate," or, "You just gave me an inappropriate thought."

Stuff like that, where you're now moving into the more serious, more here-and-now, still using those barriers that I talked about, because you never want to say something that can be rejected.

The thing about barriers is there's no point in rejecting them, because there's a barrier in between it. So the girl doesn't have to reject it. You don't want to say something that's going to allow her to reject it.

And then, another mistake guys make, is they just go too far when they're getting a positive response. If a girl starts getting a positive response, she starts giving signs that she's getting turned on, and then the guy, like, pounces, and just thinks, like, "Okay, now I need to, like, dirty talk in her ear and try to finger her in the club."

And that's never a good idea. Once you have a girl who's responding positively, now you want to really push and pull. Now you want to really use sexualized push-pull to get her turned on, and then push her away, because you want her to be initiating it more, now that she's into it.

So that's where you can start baiting her. That's where you can start sexually teasing her. That's where I can do things, like, kiss her neck, and then go, "Alright, you liked that too much," and push her away. Now, she's starting to get turned on, and she's also being challenged, so she's going to want to respond, and kind of move things forward herself.

So those are the three major mistakes, I think, that happen with balance. Either overdoing the humor and never turning into a real person. Doing a little bit at the start, and then kind of chickening out of moving into the more here-and-now and explicit stuff. And seeing that you're getting a positive response, and then just trying to go too fast, too far.

[Angel Donovan] Great man, that's all very clear. You obviously have a very structured view of all of this, so it really helps to make it clear to guys. I guess that's reflected in your experience, right?

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been doing and teaching this stuff for a long time.

[Angel Donovan] So, do you still do boot camps, as well?

[Jon Sinn] No. I do phone coaching now. I don't do boot camps anymore, I just don't think that two days is enough time to really get a lot out of it.

[Angel Donovan] So it's more, like, mentoring?

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, exactly. I work with guys for about three months at a time. Once you can figure someone's sticking points out, it's going to take them a while to work on those sticking points anyway. So, it's better to have, kind of, more of a long-term...

[Angel Donovan] Yeah I agree with that. That's something we've been doing a bit of here as well. It takes weeks of work to work on a sticking point, it's not going to be solved in a couple of hours.

[Jon Sinn] That was my big problem with the boot camp model. I can assess your sticking points in having seen you do three or four approaches, or even just hearing you describe what happens in approaches. I can pin your sticking points, but now it's going to take you two, three, maybe six weeks to really work on that.

And then what happens is... Then, once you fix one sticking point, another one pops up.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah, another one comes up. Yeah.

[Jon Sinn] Or you just move on to another part of...

[Angel Donovan] Yeah, I remember last time you came on you talked about this left-to-right process. You have to work on the stuff right at the left side, at the beginning. So if you don't know how to approach someone, and go and talk to them, you obviously have to start there. Then as you move forward, you come up with new sticking points at each step, and you just work your way through it.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, absolutely. I really believe that you have to start with the fundamentals, and then move on to the more advanced stuff, because otherwise it just doesn't work.

[Angel Donovan] It was cool that you brought up some of your personal experience. You were saying back in 2005 you were getting a lot of LMR. So, I wanted to also talk to you a little bit about your whole experience over the last ten... It's been, like, ten or so years for you?

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, it's been ten years of me teaching professionally, and like twelve years of me doing pick-up now.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah, so that's over a decade.

[Jon Sinn] For sure.

[Angel Donovan] So one of the things is, what has been your best experience with a woman to-date?

[Jon Sinn] My best experience?

[Angel Donovan] You probably have a few, but if you just pick one of them.

[Jon Sinn] My last long-term girlfriend was really awesome. She's a really special person. The hottest girl I ever picked up was this stripper, Christiana, that I dated back in, like, 2007, that I picked up at the King of Diamonds in Miami.

And then this girl Megan, this strip club waitress I dated in Dallas for a while also. I mean, all of those were, like, really good experiences. I've had a lot of really good experiences.

[Angel Donovan] What was special about those experiences that made them stand out for you?

[Jon Sinn] My ex-girlfriend was the best relationship I've had, and probably the closest I've come to seriously considering getting married.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah. Is there anything specific about the relationship... I'm just trying to see if there's anything interesting guys could learn from this.

[Jon Sinn] I just feel like I kind of met someone who was on the exact same wavelength as me. The pick-up was pretty easy. The whole thing was pretty easy, because me and her just got along really well. Same sense of humor.

[Angel Donovan] Right. Is it very natural conversations, like it's all very, very easy? You don't have to think? You're just being yourself, and it's all working really, really well?

[Jon Sinn] Yeah. I mean, I think that you find girls like that very rarely. It's a lot of time, it's a lot of work. So, when it's not a lot of work, and you also can actually be yourself... Which is bad advice for most guys, starting this...

[Angel Donovan] Right.

[Jon Sinn] But it's nice to be able to just be totally open and honest, and present yourself as you are without needing to bring out the best parts and kind of minimize the worst. I think that's always very attractive to me.

[Angel Donovan] It's a lot more fun. It makes everything a lot simpler.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, absolutely. But I also recognize that it's rare. It's not something you're going to find every night. It's not something you're going to find every month even, you know, or every three months. It's not out there that much. So yeah, that's probably what I enjoyed about that.

Christiana was just super hot, still the best looking woman I've ever seen in my entire life. And that pick-up was on a boot camp, like, afterwards, so I got a lot of props from all the other instructors, and everyone thought that was really cool. So that was a nice little ego boost back then!

[Angel Donovan] And what year did you say that was?

[Jon Sinn] That was like 2007. That was like seven years ago.

[Angel Donovan] That was great, so it was a bit nearer to the front-end of it. So it helped to build your reputation and everything.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I mean, it was a cool situation. And it was, like, high degree of difficulty, and a crowded strip club. So in terms of impressiveness, that's probably the most impressive pick-up I've done.

[Angel Donovan] Let's swing to the other side now. What has been your worst experience with a woman to-date?

[Jon Sinn] Okay, I'll give like a specific, and then I'll give what I think is a bad experience overall right now.

Worst specific experience was, I was... This is kind of a funny story. I was at a friend's birthday party, and I was introduced to this girl, Andrea. And she was supposedly gay, but she was flirting with me really heavily.

We started making out, and she was also flirting really heavily with this girl, Sophia, who was another one of our friends. So Sophia was, like, "Am I gay? What's going on?" Sophia and me were pretty good friends, and she dragged me into the bathroom and was like, "What's going on with this girl?" and I was like, "Well, you're not gay, right?"

And I literally spent half an hour talking to her about how she wasn't gay, and like talking her down. And I was, like, on the other hand... Me and that girl have been making out, so why don't you just... Instead of having a crisis of sexuality here, why don't you just like leave me and her alone?

And she was like, "Okay, cool." And then we walk out of the bathroom, and not five minutes later, her and Sophia are making out, and they run away and jump into a cab and go back to Kim's house and have sex. My straight female friend turned gay to cockblock me. That's probably my worst experience. Yeah, I was pretty upset about that.

But I think... In general, I think the pick-up experience has gotten worse in the last few years for a couple of reasons. The first one is the rise of text messaging over calling. Back in 2005, 2006, 2007, no one really texted. So you could call girls, and it's much easier, if you can get a girl on the phone, to get her to come out.

I converted so many numbers that wouldn't have really been that interested in me, but I was able to talk to them for twenty, thirty minutes on the phone, convince them that I'm cool, and also show them that if we do hang out... Because hanging out is kind of a big commitment of time. It's at least an hour to ninety minutes, and she has to get ready, she has to go somewhere, et cetera, et cetera.

So, a guy she just met... Unless you've really made a big impression, which a lot of the times you do, especially when you get better at pick-up... But sometimes it's just a quick ten, fifteen minute conversation Friday at a CVS or whatever, and it hasn't made enough of an impression on the woman to really do that much, and you need more time.

In 2014, no one picks up their fucking phone. So it's now all texting, and texting really gives women almost a hundred percent of the power. She can ignore the text, she can text back once and then take eight hours to text you back.

And there's not really anything you can do, because... I'll even try to trick girls... You know, like, I'll text them, and then the second they text me back I'll call, and I'll even get a decent amount of percentage of girls who literally just texted me back a minute ago, don't pick up the call at that point, because no one talks on the phone any more. That's kind of my big overall frustration with pick-up, is I wish we could get back to more being able to talk on the phone, because it's better for pick-up.

And also, I think, in 2014 I think women have gotten to a very strange place with, like, Instagram, and Twitter, and Facebook, where they can get validation without actually having to do anything. I know several of my attractive female friends... If they're feeling bad about themselves, they'll put a picture of themselves in yoga pants up on Twitter or Instagram or something, and all these dudes will be like, "Oh you're so hot," and they get validated without ever having to even interact with someone. Whereas before, they had to go out to a bar and get hit on.

And so, because of this, because women like that validation, I feel like in 2014 women are much less likely to say that they're not interested in guys. I will even push girls to this point, because you get stuck in the, like, text limbo. It doesn't happen to me very often...

[Angel Donovan] So you're saying they've kind of got used to the whole dynamic of getting validated all the time, and they like it, so they don't want to push guys away specifically?

[Jon Sinn] Exactly. They don't want to give specific answers. I mean, you just don't really get rejections any more, you just get put into this weird kind of limbo. And for me, I know that you want to be in or out.

I would much rather a girl, like, right at the beginning of me talking to her, tells me she has a boyfriend, or tells me she's not interested, than doing the whole string-you-along thing. And I feel like, nowadays, girls are very loath to do that, because they like the validation too much.

Like, I've even had situations with girls... I've had situations with girls who I've had sex with, where they're taking like six or eight hours to text me back, and I have to be, like, "Look. If you don't care about me, that's fine. But you either need to text back in a timely manner, or just tell me you're not interested. Because this is bullshit."

And I feel like you have to do stuff like that more and more, because girls will just kind of string it out, because they like the validation of you calling, texting, you know, commenting on their status, et cetera, much more.

[Angel Donovan] Just to add one thing in there. You are based in LA, right? In California? Which is known for this type of behavior as well, more so than other places?

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, but I'm in the process of moving to the east coast, and I see it everywhere. I see it in small towns. I've seen it everywhere I go. I really do believe... It's what I always say, if you wanted to turn...

[Angel Donovan] Also, how old are the girls? Because I was over in San Diego for a while, and I was doing some online dating and stuff, and I saw some of what you're talking about. Some of the other women, especially the older ones, say after the age of thirty...

[Jon Sinn] I think after thirty it's much less, and I also think online is much different. I mean, I've run into it with thirty-year-olds too, I just think it's a shifting of the culture towards more of a no-responsibility type culture.

It's no definitions, no responsibilities, no need to harsh divide. I always say, if you want to turn American women into, like, terrorists who would do jihads, all you would need to do is somehow convince them that they'd have a hundred friend-zoned guys in the afterlife, and they'd be strapping bombs to their chests.

It's just something that I think, culturally, women have kind of adapted. And it's really funny, because you never see the feminists mention that at all. You never see any of the really pro-feminist writers talk about the friend zone, or this kind of stringing-out of validation.

You hear them talk about, like, "Oh, sex isn't a right," and all this kind of stuff. But you don't hear the flip-side, where they talk about the stuff that they do to dudes. And I'm not even one of those hardcore men's rights... Or anything like that... I just think it's an interesting way to not take responsibility for bad behavior.

[Angel Donovan] So to summarize all of this, to deal with this... It's frustrating, because you find yourself wasting more time with women that aren't interested, that aren't with the process... So, have you become less tolerant, and a lot more direct, to deal with that?

[Jon Sinn] Yeah. I definitely find that I've been much...

[Angel Donovan] By the way, I think that also comes with experience. You know, I've been around ten plus years as well, and the longer I've been in it, the less tolerant I've become, because you've seen a lot of stuff before.

It's the same experiences, right? So you're not actually getting as much value from it, unless it's a girl you're really, really interested in, as something special, then you've got a lot less reason than you had ten years ago to keep investing that time.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, and I also just think it's how much of a game-playing person you want to be. Like, with the texting back time thing, you'll get girls just basically lying to you. They'll say things like, "Oh I didn't look at my phone for six hours," which... No girl in America is not looking at their phone for six hours.

I mean, maybe if they're like a surgeon, or a high-powered courtroom attorney, then they're doing something that they're not looking at their phone. But a girl who's, like, a freelance producer in Los Angeles. What were you doing that you were not looking at your phone? No, it just doesn't matter to you.

And that's fine, but just admit that it doesn't matter to you. That's my thing. Own what you're doing. Don't sit here and lie to me, and play these games, and be manipulative, and not take responsibility for it. I just think, culturally, we're moving towards a culture where no one is responsible for anything.

[Angel Donovan] Is this affecting all women, or do you still find women who're more straightforward and direct?

[Jon Sinn] I mean, you find women that are more straightforward, but it's much more the rarity than it even was ten years ago I think.

[Angel Donovan] So, would another way you deal with this is, you focus more on the women who're more direct, and more straightforward?

[Jon Sinn] Right, and I also have another tactic I use, which is that when girls do get into that kind of gameplay weird zone... This tactic only works on like one out of every three girls, usually girls who have daddy issues, or things with their father.

But I'll actually, like, cuss them out. When girls are playing these stupid games, not only will I call them on it, but I won't call them on it in a funny pick-up way, like, "Oh, have you been abducted? Because I haven't heard from you."

I'll literally go, "What the fuck is wrong with you? You're fucking stupid. Why are you taking twenty hours to text me back? That's fucking dumb. You're stupid." And what I've found happens is... And this is very... I have the statistics to back this up over the last two years... Is, if I do that to three girls, two of them will cuss me back, or just ignore them.

But one out of every three girls I do that to will profusely apologize and then make plans within twenty-four hours and have sex with me on the first day. Super consistently.

I'm talking like thirty, forty girls that I've done this with over the last two years, where they profusely apologize, are like, "Let's hang out tomorrow," and then have sex with me the first time we hang out.

I think it's just kind of like a loophole in daddy issues, or they don't have efficient boundaries being set. But yeah, that happens. You will get cussed out doing that too, but you will get laid doing that, because you're the only dude who ever does it.

I mean, if I was to psychoanalyze it, I think it's a couple of things. One, it's an issue with men. And two, it's that you sort of care. Especially in Los Angeles, everyone is too cool to care. But I just think, culturally, we're all, like, "Oh, we're so cool. I don't care about things," so when you get mad, it's showing that you're at least having an emotional reaction, and you at least sort of care about the person, because it's not apathy.

Because the worst thing in the world is apathy. It's not hate, because if someone hates you, or gets mad at you, they're emotionally invested. It's when people just don't care.

So, people don't want to feel as if no one cares. So even if they're getting some sort of negative emotional investment, it's still better than the no emotional investment of just, like, "Okay, well I guess it doesn't matter."

[Angel Donovan] It's definitely an interesting discussion. I've seen some of these dynamics as well, so I totally get where you're coming from. Especially when you cuss people out, I've seen that too, where you end up having sex pretty quickly afterwards.

Alright man, a couple of last questions. So who, not including yourself, would you recommend for high quality advice in this area of life? Anything to do with dating, sex and relationships.

[Jon Sinn] Rob Judge and Bobby Rio for sure. Those guys are great. Brad P... That's probably it man. I don't recommend very many people. I don't think there's that many dudes that really know what they're doing in this area.

Yeah, those are probably the only, like, PG... There are some crazy dudes I know, but I try not to recommend them, because their shit is real out-there, and they even recommend, like, doing drugs and steroids and stuff.

[Angel Donovan] Wow.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, so I mean their shit is a little more out-there than the normal dude is probably going to want to go. But yeah... Fuck it, it's the guys at goodlookingloser.com. Their stuff's really good. They have some really good stuff out there, but they also promote doing drugs, and doing steroids.

Their whole thing is, like, "Well if you're not getting attraction, then you should just do a bunch of steroids so you can get buff," and that's not great advice, obviously. But, a lot of their stuff on pick-up is very good.

But I would say basically those three are the only three that I really recommend with no hesitation at all, because they have advice that gels with what I teach, and that I think is really legit. Especially Rob Judge and Bobby Rio. Those dudes are awesome.

[Angel Donovan] Great, great. Thanks man. And last question here, what would be your top three recommendations to help men get results with this area as fast as possible? You actually answered this last time, but it'd be nice to hear if you've got some different ideas.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, absolutely. I think the first thing is you've got to take care of your looks. People don't like to hear that. People want to hear that you can be balding, and fifty pounds overweight, and dress like a nerd, and still get chicks just by saying the magic combination of words.

But I really think the first thing you should do... Like, if you're not going to the gym, if you haven't gotten a new haircut, if you haven't gotten some new clothes, if you haven't fixed your... Any terrible issues, right... You'd be amazed how many dudes I've run into with coaching who have chipped front teeth, or have a unibrow, or have these things that are so obviously and easily fixed, and would make such a huge difference in the amount of attraction you get when you're approaching women.

So I'd say that's the first thing, is fix the looks. Look as good as you possibly can, because not only will that help you more with attraction, but it'll also make you feel better. Guys bitch about confidence a lot while they're wearing dirty clothes and walking around with a unibrow and a balding haircut, which are all things you can fix. So if you want to feel better about yourself, fix that stuff.

The second thing I would say is you've got to just do a thousand approaches without really worrying about the results. A thousand approaches, that should take you like four months. If you do twenty approaches a week, for four months... I guess it'll be more than that, for four months... Fifty approaches a week, that's how many it'll take you four months, five months.

But you've got to just do a shit-ton of approaches to A) Show you that approaching is not that big of a deal and, B) to kind of get you used to what happens in the real world. Because the difference between these people who live on those Internet forums, and the people who live in the real world... It's a pretty big difference.

And then the third thing I would say is you've got to be able to track your progress, and find feedback. When I work with private coaching students, I always have them track their approaches. I think that's the most important thing, because I always say students lie and numbers don't.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah, I agree totally.

[Jon Sinn] It's just, like, when you ask a dude, "How many girls have you slept with in the last month?" he's going to not tell you the last month. He's going to tell you the best month he ever had. It's very consistent.

So you've got to have those numbers, so you can say, "Actually, last week you approached twenty." This is why my students never really argue with me, because I'm like, "Look dude, we have four hundred and eighty approaches tracked for you. If what you were doing was working, if you knew what you were doing, you would have way better results than are indicated here."

I think you've got to be able to track what you're doing. At least, at the bare minimum, know how many approaches you're doing to, like, how many phone numbers you're getting, to how many dates you're going on.

[Angel Donovan] Right, right.

[Jon Sinn] If you don't know that, you don't really have any way to get better.

[Angel Donovan] And like you said, when you make it quantitative, it just makes it so much harder to lie to yourself about it. When you keep it flimsy, it's like some wording, it's qualitative, then it's a lot easier to massage it even if you're not even thinking about it too much. But when you have hard numbers, you can't lie.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, exactly. We want to make ourselves feel good, human beings. We're always trying to look at things in a way that makes us look a little bit better. But unfortunately when it comes to improving at this, you've got to look at what's actually happening, not what you wish was happening. So that's where the tracking comes in.

So yeah, I think: fix your looks, be willing to do a lot of approaches, and track what's happening. Because once you track what's happening, you're going to find yourself in the same situations over and over again. There's just not that many sticking points that consistently happen.

Once you can start conversations, you're basically running out of things to say. Not saying the right things to build attraction. Not qualifying. Not moving. Not touching enough. Not setting up dates. Bad phone interaction. Bad physical escalation.

There's like ten or twelve things that you're going to very consistently find happen over, and over, and over again. And that's when you can then go to the forums, or the courses, or the coaches, and say, "Here's what happening. What do I do about it?"

I mean, I'm sure you do coaching. You've seen dudes who are like, "Well, I'm not really sure what's going on," or, "I think my problem is this," when really their problem, like... You know, like I have a student now, who he came to me and was like, "My problem is in attraction," and we started tracking his approaches, and he couldn't keep a conversation going for more than, like, three minutes.

[Angel Donovan] That specific one is very, very common.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, I'm like, "Your problem's not attraction. Your problem is running out of things to say, and not being able to keep a conversation going." Those are two very different sticking points.

[Angel Donovan] It seems like guys like to lean on the attraction thing as like an excuse, because they're thinking it's something new, I think. So it's like, "I haven't yet learned how to do attraction," but he doesn't like to say, "I don't know how to make conversation," because it sounds more basic.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah, I'll get a lot... With the dudes, when I tell them that their basic conversation skills suck, they'll go like, "How can that be? I'm, like, a top salesman at my company," or, like "I'm a teacher," and it's like, "Yeah dude, that's not cold approach. Maybe in sales your conversation skills don't suck, but in approaching women, your conversation skills suck." It's two different things, right?

[Angel Donovan] And it's contextual. Some people, if it's been their job for a while, of course he's going to be good at selling specific things. He's been doing it, he's got a ton of experience in it, and he feels comfortable in it. But put him into that new context, and, you know, he doesn't know what to say.

[Jon Sinn] It's like dude who get really hot chicks because they're bartenders. I know one dude in LA who literally just kills it. He's actually on a reality show now, but that dude probably sleeps with a hundred, two hundred girls a year, just because he bartends at a hot restaurant in Beverly Hills.

But when we go out, like, just to go talk to women by himself, he's terrible. He can't approach girls to save his life, but that dude... In terms of results, that dude kills me in terms of hot girls and numbers. But it's all contextual. It's all because he can do it behind the bar where he has some authority, and, you know, where they have to talk to him and et cetera, et cetera.

[Angel Donovan] Right, right. That exact scenario happened to me when I was like eighteen years old. I was working in a bar, and it was easy and straightforward, and I didn't really say anything to be quite honest. And then everything changed when I was in my late twenties, and I had to do some work.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah man, but it's not that you always have a problem with conversation. It's that in cold approach you have trouble with conversation, which makes you the same as literally ninety-nine percent of all people.

[Angel Donovan] Right, yeah. Yeah. Like, being good at conversation in that specific scenario isn't typical. It's something you do have to learn to be good at.

[Jon Sinn] Yeah. You very rarely meet dudes who are good at that, and when you do meet dudes who are good at that, you're usually meeting someone who's just done the work.

I've met dudes who started approaching at like thirteen, fourteen years old, and, you know, got good at it by the time they were like twenty-one. People just assume they've always been good at it, but you have to put in the work to get good at cold approach. There's no real other way around it.

[Angel Donovan] Yeah, yeah. Excellent points man, thank you very much for those. And thank you for coming on the show, it's been great having you back.

[Jon Sinn] Awesome man. Yeah, it's been fun talking. It's always good to talk, so hopefully we can do it again soon.