Ep. #80 Orgasmic Meditation with Toni

[Angel Donovan]: Hey Toni, it's great to have you on the show.

[Toni]: Thank you for having me.

[Angel Donovan]: No, thank you for making time for this and you are my OM mentor so, you are the best person to talk to about this stuff.

[Toni]: That's the first person who told that. So, I'm going to try to either do or do not let that go to my head. I don't know exactly about what affects that will have.

[Angel Donovan]: I wonder if I was the biggest disaster you've ever met in OM? What is Orgasmic Meditation?

[Toni]: Orgasmic Meditation is 15-minute, timed and partnered practice where a stroker, usually a man, strokes a woman's clit for 15 minutes in an up-down motion. All each other person has do is to just connect to the sensation. There's a whole thing around Orgasmic Meditation about it being a "goal-less" practice and it's there for people to connect to feelings and whatever comes up and your sexuality and all that.

In the container of the 15 minutes, it is to help both parties feel it's a very safe and, I would say guided sort of thing. So, that if OMing were something that you did 45 minutes or who knows, when you know it's just that 15 minutes, it allows you to be more fully focused and immersed in the experience than if it were something that were more loose and free-form.

[Angel Donovan]: Right but, we have to take it to orgasm. Whenever it comes to sex and sexuality, we’re often thinking we're trying to push it towards orgasm in this direction and so, it becomes this performance thing.

[Toni]: Yes exactly. In the OM community especially and other sexuality communities as well, they draw a separation between orgasm and climax. Climax is what we see where a woman throws her head back in ecstasy and there's all kinds of fireworks and everything and orgasm is what leads up to that.

It's the rising titillating heat sensation and for me often I feel like my scalp tingles, like my hair standing on end. So orgasm is all of that sensation that's leading up to it. It's the turn on, it's your heart swells, however that feels for you.

Going back to what you're talking in terms of it not just being like to get somebody off. Orgasmic Meditation and in that meditation practice is about staying in that place of focus and connection and sensation without it being about the climax. Now, the climax can happen but, that's where it is to start.

[Angel Donovan]: Does climax happen as well?

[Toni]: It does happen especially as you're going into it, just riding the waves of sensations, you're not trying to hold back from that but, it's also not what you're trying to drive towards at the same time, if that makes sense.

[Angel Donovan]: We'll get into the different perspective from the female and the male in a bit but, it must be very, very different in a practice because basically, it's the guy who's stroking. They call him the stroker and he's stroking the clit in a certain way for 15 minutes which is probably a very different activity for most men from what they're used to.

Then, the women, in terms of just relaxing and lying back and it's very different for her. From the woman's perspective, have you found it different compared to your normal sexual activities in terms of having to let out or having your mind set or where you have to put it?

[Toni]: Or everything.

[Angel Donovan]: It's complicated, right?

[Toni]: For one thing, when you OM with someone, a nest is set up and that's like a blanket, yoga mat and a woman keeps her top on but, takes her pants off. The man is fully dressed. The woman lies down and butterflies her legs open.

A man sits down and puts his left leg across her and there's this whole thing. The pressure that he's using on her clit is the same amount of pressure if you were like just barely stroking your eye lid. It's not like a jack-hammer. If that helps.

[Angel Donovan]: It's nothing like porn.

[Toni]: So, just that in itself where there's a whole process of the man grounds the woman in terms of placing his hands on her thighs and that's part of the process for really connecting to the other person and letting the breath drop in.

These are steps that are taking in OMing that most people don't take in their sex life and that puts it in more of that meditation realm. These are things that one would do. Like for yoga or whatever or in tantra where it borrows and blurs a lot of those lines as well.

Also going back to what we were saying earlier about it not being so much about the getting off, there's a lot of weight that's placed on that climax. How much a woman is physically connected to herself, to her whole being and her sexuality or whether the guys doing a good job, whether the couple is communicating, the climax is the judgment or verdict.

Whether that's the case right? That may or may not be it. In my own sex life, whether or not I orgasmed didn't really have to do with that other person. It had to do with what was going on inside of myself.

In terms of other things that are different from the other stuff that goes in one's sex life, after you OM, we do a thing called "sharing frames" with the other person. That's when you describe a sensation and the feeling that was connected to it just from one particular moment that happened during the OM.

"There was a moment when I felt this hot tingly sensation from the tips of my toes and it went all the way up to my pussy and all the way up to the top of my head," or whatever that is. At least in my sex life, especially in the past, I haven't articulated those things.

OM really pushes you, not only in terms of that communication but also, when you have to say that to somebody else, you get to connect to it for yourself. Then you get to identify it, "Oh, that's what felt good to me. That's what turned me on. That's something I enjoy."

Now, in terms of my sex life and going forward, my communication abilities for a partner for like what turns me on, what are the ways I enjoy being cracked open, what are ways that I can better share what's going on with me. All of that is upped significantly because, I've had this practice to help drive that home.

[Angel Donovan]: Has it been like releasing blocks inside you, kind of like releasing your intimacy, getting deep into more self-awareness?

[Toni]: Yes because, there's nothing to get you into intimacy just like taking your pants off and letting somebody stroke your clit. Not to just get into it.

[Angel Donovan]: Let's talk about the social situation a little bit because, I want to make it clear here. There are couples that do this, right?

[Toni]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: I didn't really meet any couples that are doing this in my exposure to this so far.

[Toni]: I have.

[Angel Donovan]: Oh, you have. Are they few and far between?

[Toni]: There are couples. I've gone to OMing circles where there are couples who will only OM with each other exclusively.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Toni]: I've also known couples who are monogamous in their sex with each other and they will OM with other people.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay so, let's take a step back. OM circle, what is that? It's a pretty weird first experience as Toni has seen when I did my first time.

[Toni]: Angel, you're so critical of yourself in this learning process. I just wish niceness for you.

[Angel Donovan]: The whole thing was a lot of fun for me.

[Toni]: An OM circle is where strokers and strokees will come together and do the timed practice together and they will line up partners ahead of time. So usually at an OM circle, there will two OMs. An OM is 15 minutes. So that means that whether it's in sending text messages to other OMers that you know or however you do it, "You're going to be my OM number one, you're going to be my OM number two."

There's one person who holds time and so people set up nests. It could be five couples or five sets of people or it could be 20 or what have you. 15 minutes stroking and then, a short break in between sharing frames and then, trading partners. Then, another stroker would come over and then, that's it. That's an OM circle. Yes, you're in a room lying down on a blanket and a yoga mat and pillows and hearing a lot of orgasm in one space.

[Angel Donovan]: There's a bunch of people OMing in the same room and you switch partners. It's a little bit like swinging. It's not like swinging in terms of sex but, you are swinging between OM partners basically.

To take a step back, the OM community, which is kind of coordinated for the OM hub and for the events. People connect with each other through that and they ask each other if they want to OM. There's a lot of swinging. We'll call it swinging. I don't know what else to call it.

[Toni]: I like that you call it swinging. To me, it's community. It's making contact.

[Angel Donovan]: Connecting with different OMers.

[Toni]: Yes, connecting, yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Actually, that's a better term because, I look at this as a meditation kind of thing. So, you connect with different people and you say, "Hey, would you want to OM?" and they say, "Yes, sure." You invite each other.

When I was in L.A., I would go one place to OM with someone and then, someone else would be there and say, "Hey, you're here. Why don't we OM?" It's this big community and everyone's very friendly and taking opportunities to OM because, everyone enjoys it and they're getting the practice out of it for whatever reasons.

I wanted to ask you, what got you first get into it? How did you first come across OM and how did you take those first steps if you can take yourself back to that? I know you said it was a long time ago, it was like three years ago now.

[Toni]: That's something that stands out in one's memory. I was working with a life coach in New York that I still work with. I was telling her the reasons I wanted to work with her and what was really coming up in my life as significant challenges. The first thing that I said to her was, "I want to connect to and use my voice."

I was feeling very emotionally shut down and I definitely was not connected to my sexuality, my sexual power unlocks.

[Angel Donovan]: What does that mean?

[Toni]: For me, it meant that I didn't feel at home in my body. I didn't feel love for my body. I felt in my sex that it was a lot of "How can I please someone else so they will like me, love me, tell me that I'm good enough?" I was using sex as a way to boost my self-esteem, instead of a way to connect to another person.

I wasn't speaking out for what I really wanted in my sex. Again, that came to the connecting to my voice, right? The stuff I was saying earlier about OM upping your communication. My life coach is someone who OMs and she's been OMing for a while.

She was talking about how the practice takes these other facets of life about communication, about vulnerability and intimacy and when you bring that down to sexual energy which is like you know the base of where we come from. That sexual energy component of us is something that's so primal and often denied, capped, pushed down, labeled as unacceptable that when you connect to it, it opens up one's life in these tremendous ways.

The way that she described it to me was that if you can communicate to someone when they're finger is on your clit, then you can communicate in all areas of your life. She explained the whole practice to me and because I was already on this journey of self-discovery and I had some much faith and trust in her, I just went to a workshop.

I went to this one-day workshop where there was this live demonstration of the OM and so, I got to see Nicole Daedone who is the founder of One Taste and she wrote the book "Slow Sex" on Orgasmic Meditation. She did a demonstration of OMing on one of the OM coaches. So, I got to see someone stroked.

[Angel Donovan]: So, she was stroking a girl?

[Toni]: It was, to date, one of the most profoundly moving beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. I felt as if my heart was connected to each and every person in that room and like I was part of that orgasm and I felt like these waves of passion and freedom that were coming out of this woman's pussy were part of me. It was this lightning-bolt moment. So that's when I knew that I wanted to engage in it.

In this one-day workshop, they answered questions about OMing. Nicole Daedone talked about her history of what brought her to the Orgasmic Meditation process. They talked about the steps and then, if you wanted to stay for the portion at the end, you could actually do a first OM.

I was in this room with a whole bunch of people that I did not know but, you're all there for the same reason. So, you're kind of looking around thinking, "What brought you here?" It was an easy-bonding experience. You probably think that you have some things in common at least with that person that brought you all to that room, right?

After most of this workshop, a group of us went out to lunch and we were all talking about "What stood out for you?" or whatever. We got very friendly. Then, we came back and we could actually do the OMs. Some of the coaches would help us, "Do you need a partner? Do you need a partner?"

On that day was the first day that I laid down on a yoga mat and took off my pants and a man put on gloves and the whole set up and the lube and had my first OMs. That was it.

[Angel Donovan]: Just to explain that experience, is it similar or was your first time very different and it's something that the first time is kind of more difficult? Because, I noticed, when I did the same workshop as you, there were a lot of reactions around the room.

For instance, when one girl saw that first OM demonstration, the girl sitting next to me and I had been talking to for a while, she freaked out. She was horrified by it because, she had a sexual experience in her life where she with was extremely dominant men and she liked to be dominated a lot and that's what she thought was great.

She was quite happy to talk about that a lot and how she likes dominant sex and being dominated and this kind of area but, OM was kind of the opposite. She saw this guy softly stroking a girl and not getting anything out of it, not dominating the girl. For her, it seemed to put everything into question and she was mostly covering up her face.

Just to say that I think around the room, people respond to it differently based on what their experiences are. Some people like you and in my group too, they were blown away. Most of the day, I found was like 80% talking, sharing your experiences, them talking about the experience, the coaches sharing their experience.

[Toni]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Then, you come to the end finale, which is the practice part. Some people opted out of that. Some people really want to go for it because, they've enjoyed what they've saw and they think it's something they want to continue with. At the end of the day, you're in a room of about 40 people, maybe 20 pairs roughly?

[Toni]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: How did that feel that first experience?

[Toni]: Just going back, in that workshop that I was in, there was a similar breakdown to what you're saying. It was 80% of us were in some way able to articulate something positive. The other thing with OMs, they just want you to take away the auto-filter that you have in your brain. First thought, we could be acting more on the flow.

Guys were not wanting to say something like, "My cock is really hard." They said, "No, that's great. Just fucking say that." There was a woman near me who was just crying sobbing. There was a guy on the other side who was very angry and I honestly don't know what he thought he was going to get at this workshop, but he felt like this was going way outside the bounds of what was okay or whatever.

Part of the reason why there are so many coaches and whomever that are in the room is to talk to people, is to try to get people to, not necessarily like they're trying to brain wash them or something, but talk to them about their feelings so that somebody doesn't just storm out of the room and not at least get the experience with trying to articulate what's going on for them.

So, I will say that there was a similar breakdown to what you were saying. Anyway, what was your actual question?

[Angel Donovan]: Can we get to the practical experience and I have to say that a lot of people opted in for that.

[Toni]: You asked about what my first time OMing was like?

[Angel Donovan]: Yes because, you do it in the practice in the workshop room right?

[Toni]: My first time, and I don't think that I'm unique in this, there was so much noise going on in my head that it was very difficult for me to connect to the sensation. That's why I was so thankful to have the coaches there that were repeating things like, "Just keep breathing. All you have to focus on is the finger tip. Where is his finger? That's all you want to focus on." In my head, there were a million things going on like, "This is crazy. What am I doing?"

[Angel Donovan]: "I'm in a room with 20 people."

[Toni]: And then, you're hearing, "Ahhh, ahhh." I think, "That's not happening for me right now."

[Angel Donovan]: And now you're feeling inferior or something, all these pressures.

[Toni]: Just comparing despairs going on. Then, they guy who was stroking me was so nervous and he took forever to find my clit like he needed a flashlight. There was just a lot that was going on. It's not like I was checking my watch but, it took at least half way through before he found my clit and I was able to really drop into the experience. I have to say that I'm somebody who meditates. I meditate daily. I do stuff to get out of my head and this definitely was different.

[Angel Donovan]: I think that’s a really big important point for you because, I think of this whole thing from the guy’s perspective and it's probably a lot from your perspective, the woman's perspective is a niche. It's just like meditation. It's similar. I've done different types of meditation. I find it a bit more similar to transcendental meditation and getting into flow because, you're focused on something. You're doing something.

As a guy, you'd think you wouldn't feel anything. I think this is when of the things that people need to clear up. You're stroking a girl's clit for 15 minutes. A lot of guys are going to think, "You're not going to get anything out of that." A lot of guys and girls are asking, "What does a guy get out of it?"

It's kind of like meditation and like you were talking about "sharing frames" and I think , people can relate to a girl as she is going through different layers of an orgasm because, her clit is getting stroked. She's going to feel different things, like you were saying, different sensations in her body and different waves, but guys also feel things.

When I first went to the workshop, even though I've been talking about this stuff for a long a time, I got a fair amount of experience. It was kind of funny for me to be watching the guy doing the demonstration and them talking about all the feelings he was going to be getting. I thought, "Okay, well maybe I can relate to that in terms of meditation. If I didn't have any knowledge or experience with meditation, I would have been pretty confused at that point as to what's going on in the brain of the guy."

[Toni]: Yes, I don't actually have statistics about this but, I feel safe in saying that for a lot of guys, the first thing is, "Oh, I get to stroke pussy? Great." That in itself is its own reward which is true. The stuff that guys have shared with me about what they get to connect to and what they get out of the OMing practice is in being able to connect to their own feelings and articulate them which is so true for the women as well.

If you were just look at sharing frames and you pinpoint a sensation, a feeling and you put that into two words, the more that you do that in one area of your life, it's going to affect the rest. So that, if you're coming to a part where you had a fight with your girlfriend or your mom said something that you weren't okay with at Christmas whatever the heck it is, that habit has been strengthened in you to communicate.

One of the things also in OMing is that the stroker can offer, "Would you like more pressure? Would like to the right?" They can make an adjustment and they learn how to follow sensation and read another person's body and I feel that when one is in tune with things on that physical level, that also translates to when you're having a conversation with somebody that you can read what they're shoulders are doing, you can read what they're eye contact is, you can read what they're breathing is.

"Oh, you're getting upset when you're saying this. I didn't mean to upset you. Would you like to change the topic?" There are a million ways that that can go.

[Angel Donovan]: Also, on a sexual level because, guys get nervous about sex or they're focused on performance. So, they're not actually observing or immersed in that experience. I think they're actually worse than women from that perspective a lot of the time potentially because, they're more competitive, eager, invested in it.

I can just tell you from my perspective from all the questions we get from guys and what they're focus is, there's a lot of performance anxiety or sometimes is not an immersed, it's not a connecting kind of sex. So, I feel like maybe they some of the times they haven't taken the time to observe and this practice, basically, you're sitting there for 15 minutes and you start noticing different changes like you're saying in the woman's body.

So whether it's the clitoris and the vagina or it's different women have different experience and things change in their body as they're orgasming as their going through the process. So maybe some girls like their feet or their toes or their other muscles in their bodies are going to start changing or twitching and doing that with a variety of women kind of gets you in touch with how a woman's body can respond to her sexuality.

For some guys, I think it would be good for their own sexuality, for their understanding of women because, it gives them that chance to relax and focus on that. Then, they're probably going to be able to notice in their own sexual experience, especially when they're having sex with women they've met in normal life, they're going to be able to connect with that better. They're going to be able to observe and they can understand what's going on more whereas I think basically, guys haven't take the opportunity to observe that kind of thing before.

[Toni]: I heard one of the coaches say that for guys, especially where sex is concerned, it's assumed that they know everything. “Well, you’re a guy.” So, to come to OMing can be a vulnerable thing for them because, this is an area where they have to admit that they don't know everything. I feel like that would be helpful to translate to somebody's sexuality in their sex life. You're not expected to a) know everything and b) that you can learn another person and communicate about that.

Also going back to the performance thing, I've had OMs where maybe I wasn't like sent to like sky-rockets of pleasure but, simply because I was able to have a connected experience with the other person, that's what mattered. That was the most important thing about it. I've had OMs where I've cried and the guy, whatever his thing is in that, you get to know that it's not his responsibility, that's my experience and that's not on him.

[Angel Donovan]: Would you say that when two people are OMing, does the experience just come from you? Does it depend on how your week has been? What's going on in your life and how you were before you came to that OM or it is also a bit of a dynamic between the person, maybe where both people are at and how long the guys been stroking obviously a little bit also?

[Toni]: Yes, I feel like it's a mix especially recently. I've had experiences in my OMs where I definitely thought that what was coming up were things that I was dealing with and not dealing with in my personal life and those were things that were going on inside of me. That didn't really have anything with whether the guy who was stroking me had been stroking for a week or five years or whatever.

I've also had OMs where I was in one place before I OMed and I was in a very different place emotionally after I OMed. That was certainly helped by the fact that the stroker was someone who was more experienced and so, there were more peaks and whatever happened.

OM in itself allows me personally to fully connect to what's going on in my spiritual and emotional life. To me, I treat OM just like I do a meditation practice or taking care of myself spiritually and in other ways and my own self-discovery journey and all of that.

So, it's definitely a mix and even when I'm with somebody who's not as experienced, whatever happens in that OM is still kind of up to me because, I have the ability to communicate. It's up to me where I can say, "To the left. Slower." That's on me.

If I just lay back and I don't know, white-knuckle it through or just lie can keep my mouth shut when I'm not fulfilling my desire or I'm not really connecting to it then, that's on me. That's not on the stroker.

[Angel Donovan]: That in itself is you learning to communicate.

[Toni]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: So, it's good for you. One of the women I met and OMed with, she's done a lot of courses since I met her. This is one of the very nice things I'd say about the community, people are very warm and friendly and very giving and all this. It's a great dynamic in the community. She reached out to me just to tell me that for whatever reason, the experience was like very, very special.

It was kind of funny because, I look back on the experience and when I was involved in it, I didn't realize it was that special as of an experience for her. So I think sometimes, it can be on one side or another.

Sometimes, I've had OMs where I've got into this meditative state and all get these meditative experiences. I think as a guy, if you have ever experienced meditation and stuff it is similar to that experience but, you can get that and then, other times, you don't necessarily get that.

I felt like it was like a lot to do with my mindset based on my experience with meditation because, I know when I'm having a bad day with meditation, it's really hard to get into the flow, to get into that the state when, it's really got to do with everything else that lead up to that moment.

I kind of felt like definitely a big influence or her experience that they would have been whatever is going on coming up to that period not just necessarily the fact that there's a guy there and it happens to be a particular guy or anything.

[Toni]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, we've been over some of the benefits for you and do you think it's similar for all women, the kind of benefits that you get or have you spoken to other women over conversations and stuff and do some women doing it for different reasons?

[Toni]: Yes, I know that there are women who really, the reason that they OM is for fun and because they like feeling orgasmic and that's great. I haven't a lot of them to be honest. Most of the ones that I've met, we connect to OM because, in whatever way but mostly in similar ways, it's helped to open huge things in our lives. For example, going back to the thing that if you can communicate when someone has their finger on your clit, you can communicate in all areas.

[Angel Donovan]: Especially, somebody you don't know very well.

[Toni]: Yes, exactly, this is someone that I don't know.

[Angel Donovan]: If you've got a stranger with his finger on your clit and you can communicate with him, that's a pretty unique situation.

[Toni]: Yes, I will say also the communication, just like in any relationship, does get easier when it's somebody that you've OMed with regularly. But surely, if it's someone you just saw at an OM circle but you don't actually really know them or whatever and then you can tell them, "Faster, slower," then that's tremendous.

It wasn't even the first year that I was OMing, putting that communication into practice, I was able to speak up for a raise with my boss and I got it. I was able to speak up more in my relationship with mom about communication that did or did not work for me. The whole stroking thing applies to many areas.

That when someone make an offer of "More pressure, less pressure", and that when they follow through on that, you can just say, "Thank you." So, even when I've been on the phone with a customer service representative, it allows me to be thankful that this person's just trying to give me information. There's so many benefits that I've had.

Another thing honestly, I know that I'm not the only woman who feels this way, when I'm OMing regularly, I give so fewer fucks about other bullshit stuff in my life. If you think about it, if you've had this great feeling of, you get to feel sexy, you get to feel powerful, you get to feel juicy and just fantastic and then, that's how you show up to a job interview. That's how you show up to a date later that evening. There's a huge energetic response out in the world and the universe to someone who has orgasm regularly going on in their life.

I don't feel as much pressure inside to say, "Oh, I have to go have sex," because, I get to enjoy all these sexy connected feelings in OMing. I'm not saying I still don't have a need for sex because, that's definitely there. But, it doesn't have to keep me awake at night, if that makes sense.

[Angel Donovan]: You're not going to be desperate. It's possible that people get so horny that they settle for a relationship they're in. People are in relationships all the time that they're not necessarily really into but, when you're getting sexually satisfied every day, that's not likely going to happen.

[Toni]: It's all about that I don't have to settle. Turning the conversation back to my own personal life, I have really been on this focus thing of I don't want to settle for less than what my heart truly wants and because, I'm OMing, I feel very certainly that I get to enjoy these sexy connected feelings.

Where if I weren't OMing regularly, I probably would have settled for some one-night-stand, booty call shit that I don't actually want and for me would have been settling which is not the most loving choice that I could make for myself right now. Where I am at right now, that's not what I want and I can totally say that if I weren't OMing, I would have done that quite a while ago.

[Angel Donovan]: Yes, it's really good stuff. So, we kind of miss a bit because, you brought it up just now is the OM lifestyle. When I spoke to some different people around the community, some people are OMing three times a day, some people way more.

One guy was hanging out down at a hive and he was asking me to come down and hang out there. I thought it was a great idea. I didn't go because, I was too busy. Basically, you'd hang out there, work there for a while. He had a job like me where he can just work on a laptop somewhere and he would work on a laptop for an hour then, he would OM because, there's a whole bunch of people down at the OM house all the time as people coming and going. So, he was doing 10 OMs a day.

Some people were doing three times a day. Some people were doing once a day. Some people I've spoken to in London (I’m in London now) and I've been to a couple OM events here and they do it once or twice a day sometimes. I think most people are doing it a few times a week. What is you experience?

[Toni]: Yes, it's definitely the camp that I'm in. I've had experiences where I've been able to OM, I don't know, maybe four times in a week or something and that's been great.

[Angel Donovan]: What's the most OMs you ever did in a day?

[Toni]: Three, I think.

[Angel Donovan]: Was that in a course or something?

[Toni]: No, it was in New York and it was just like I did one in the morning and then, I think I did three in one day. It's hard to remember. Do you mean like different partners or actual Oms?

[Angel Donovan]: Just 15-minute OMs.

[Toni]: Oh, four.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Toni]: And that was just like with one OM partner.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, was that in a relationship or was that just something that you guys just decided to do?

[Toni]: That was something we decided to do. I know that there are people who OM every day and I definitely know who OM three or four times a day. Some of those people who OM three or four times a day live with other people who OM so, they walk downstairs. So, it's easy access for them.

For me, I feel satisfied with like three times a week. That feels fine for me. I'm sure it would be great if I had more than that but, sometimes it's like the time.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, like logistics and time.

[Toni]: Yes and also in terms of the OM lifestyle, I'm not one of those who lives at an OM house. That's not something that I see myself doing so, that's like a different way connecting to the OM life that I'm not doing.

[Angel Donovan]: Definitely, there's many different approaches to it. Giving you guys an idea of different approaches people take to it. Some people want to get a lot of experience quite quickly.

One of the girls I met, she just started doing a lot of courses. There's a lot of different courses you can do and she's been hanging out at the house and going to all the events and very quickly, within a week, she's had way more experience than I have the whole time I've done it because, I was not the best disciple. I had to disappear for a couple weeks and come back and so on.

Let's talk about, are there any downsides or are there other things people should be aware that might make it not for them? Obviously, you like it because, you've been doing it for three year but, is there any side of it that is not really great or that you should be aware of or it's helpful to people if they're thinking about getting into this?

[Toni]: I definitely find it helpful because, I come from the way of thinking that anything and everything that comes from it is going to be for your benefit even if it's you knowing that, "Okay, that's not something for me." Then, that's still for your benefit. Even the experiences that I have had that have not been incredibly positive, they're still helpful for me. So, it's hard for me to figure out how to phrase it.

Something that was difficult was, I did have an experience that I was OMing with as a regular partner. We did have sex which I don't think I would label it as a good or a bad thing for people to do because, I've had sex with OM partners.

With this particular person, I found that I had difficulty in the OMs because then, I had trouble connecting to the moment because, in the back of my head, I was thinking, "Oh, is he going to want to have sex after this?" One of the huge things in the whole OM experience is to get a woman's what's called the "vigilant center" to calm down so that she can connect to the sensation.

So, in each woman, we carry this part of our core that's like almost that primal brain of, "Protect what's happening to me," and wants to jolt and defend and put up walls because in the back of our head we think, "One in three women gets raped." We've got this whole narrative that's running behind us especially around sex that's like, "Be on your guard."

So, that's a huge barrier to get across in order to connect to the sensation of OMing. That's one of the reasons why it's like very secure like, "You have to keep to the 15 minutes. You have to let her know when you're placing your hands on her." It's to get all of that noise to calm down.

When I was with this OM partner, that "vigilant center" was coming back up because, for women, the whole like being about to connect to sensation without the question of expectation afterwards is a huge fucking revolutionary thing for us. Because for us, to connect to a sexual experience without having that thing about, "Oh, does he want me to jerk him off after this." Then, we can't be present to a moment and that's such a big thing for us.

So, that was a huge barrier and once I communicated that to him, that was tough and then, in addition, it wasn't just that he wanted to have sex but, he wanted us to have a relationship which I felt like I was not on that same page.

[Angel Donovan]: So I guess, did you have to stop OMing?

[Toni]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: It sounds like you had the conversation quite quickly or was it more complicated in terms of this came up and you had the conversation? A lot of stuff you've been talking about today is OM makes you more able to communicate. So, I'm just wondering if OM helped you to communicate in that situation and it kind of straightened out quickly?

[Toni]: To be honest, I can't say that, "Oh thanks to OMing, I was able to communicate this big thing in 30 seconds." That's not what happened.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. We're talking a pile of shit here.

[Toni]: No, thanks to OMing, I was able to communicate it period, instead of just not answering the dude's phones calls and like running away to my apartment or something. It took me a bit but, I did communicate it and I did stop OMing with him because, for one thing, I felt like it wasn't fair to him.

I was fine not being in a relationship and not having sex and just getting great stroking. I felt like that was not a kind thing to do for him who wanted more. That I would say was not an overall positive experience but, I'm also really thankful for it.

Another thing is that the One Taste management administration, the staff, they're individuals in One Taste in that group that I have a such a great time with and I feel really like value me as a person. I have had more than a couple experiences with individuals like higher ups in One Taste who I feel, only see me as a credit card and that is a huge turn off for me.

So there's so many benefits that I've gotten from OM. Then, when I have this thing that pops up of somebody not asking how I'm doing and they genuinely don't give a shit because, they just want to get to a part in the conversation where they can try and get me to sign up for this class or sign up for this course or swipe the credit card, that really spoils the love and it spoils the experience.

What I will say on the other hand is that what I get is so much more than very, very small thing of individuals who see me as a credit card. For me, it's not enough to get me to just throw up a middle finger and peace out from all of OM forever.

[Angel Donovan]: I don't know how they are incentivized or how it is but, I was getting called a lot when I was in L.A. quite a few times per week by different people all the time. So, I felt like kind of the same thing from that perspective.

It's probably the way the organization is set up in terms of incentives and stuff because, a lot of people are part of the organization. There's a lot of coaches and what do you call them operatives or what do you call them? Did you call them operatives? It sounded like you called them operatives. I watched Mission Impossible last night.

Anyway, whether they were coaches or just people, there are a lot of people in the organization. So, if I go to an event here, there's probably like six people are part of the organization versus another 10-15 who aren't at an event. So, it's a fair number.

Can you just talk about some of the benefits to guys? From my perspective, what I felt it was like is for guys who are not really on top of their sexuality, maybe they haven't had sexual experiences. I know there are a lot of guys who listen to the pod cast who sometimes say, "You haven't had any sexual experience at all? You've never had that or maybe you've had very little? Maybe you've had one girlfriend and it was very limited in terms of the experience you had and it wasn't like fully aware."

Or you might have heard us talk about in the pod cast before, sexual expression and I think that's what we're also talking about a bit today. You're feeling free, Toni to express yourself sexually now and because you've been OMing for a while.

Just to touch on that, you said to me one day that you wouldn't get into a relationship with someone who didn't OM. Did I remember that correctly?

[Toni]: You're in the ball park. I would want to be in a relationship with somebody where OMing is a part of what we do. If that means that we OM with other people, I don't know. That's something that I would have to discover but, I've done the thing of being in a relationship and so, he didn't know how to OM and he didn't want me to OM with other people. So, OMing was not part of my life for that time period and I don't want to do that.

I would at least want to OM like if I was OMing only exclusively with my partner or OMing with other people and sexually monogamous with my partner. I would want to do one of those two.

Going to what you're saying of the people who are sexually inexperienced, I would say that there are a fair number of guys who come to OM who, I don't know how to say this but, they're kind of in this group of the mindset of like, "Nice guys finish last", and they feel like girls only see them as a friend and they maybe haven't had a lot of girlfriends or maybe not a lot of sexual experience.

In OMing, I've noticed that they get to connect to owning that you can be the nice guy that girls want to sit down and watch a movie with or a TV show and have the popcorn and whatever and you can also have your own sexual beast going on at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. That both of them can exist.

[Angel Donovan]: Do you think these types of guys learn that through OM because, it seems like such an "un sexual beast" approach for a guy?

[Toni]: Yes, the thing is that I need to kind of separate it. It's not just that, OMing being the meditative practice that it is, it's more like when someone goes to a turn on event that that really comes up. A turn on is like a fun word game like, "Let's connect and be unrestricted" thing.

So, a turn on is where OM coaches will lead it and a group of people, it could be 10 people or 40 people, however many decide to come. People introduce themselves and what they try to do is recreate the experience of an OM with word games and with all clothing on.

So people ask questions like, "If your sex life had a theme song, what would it be?" or, it could be, "Here's something most people don't know about me. Here's something I wish people knew about me." They really want you to respond on the impulse again without the caveats.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, it's getting people to open up about their sexuality, what they're thinking exactly. One of the examples of those games, I've seen a few times is you sit out in front of the audience and anyone can ask you a question. The idea is that you answer as truthfully as you can about your own sexuality.

I've seen people still hiding and you can tell when someone's hiding and some people are very expressive. I'm sure if people go there for a while, they get more relaxed about it and they start talking to people about their sexuality and they're expressing themselves as they are rather than trying to be something and wondering how they should be.

[Toni]: Yes, when you see someone who is like we're describing who it maybe their custom to being the "unassuming nice guy." There's a game that is played during turn on called hot seat where one person from the audience or the group goes up to a chair at the front and we can ask them any question that we want to. We want to stay on the thread of other questions.

I've seen more than a few times when someone goes up there and there's more that's revealed in these question where they have this tiger on the inside but, on the outside, they're playing a lamb. I feel that a lot of times that these guys underestimate that the tiger could be appealing to women and that you can be both the lamb and the tiger. I personally have no desire to fuck a lamb.

[Angel Donovan]: That's actually a topic that comes up a lot. We've had some good conversations actually exactly on that topic where women don't want you pretending to be a nice guy. I hate saying the word, "nice guy" because, it's so laden in society now and people talk about nice guys and everything but, you're trying to be nicer than you are and putting this nice front on. So, do you feel that there are a lot of those types of guys who come to the OM community?

[Toni]: If like it’s that, I feel it's also that they're really accustomed to getting shot down and rejected and their esteem is low.

[Angel Donovan]: If you’re in a situation, if someone is listening and I know there's many people like that who are listening, is OM helpful in some way? Is it a good place to go to build confidence to basically get into your own skin more? Have you seen this in the community?

Have you seen guys who have first shown up and you've felt that they were unconfident and they were trying to be overly nice and it wasn't going well for them. Then, you have seen them change over time. Is it something that you've seen a lot? I'll give you my, what I've seen in a bit but, I haven't been around for years so, I haven't seen as much as you.

[Toni]: Listen, I don't know if you want to keep this in the recording but, I know guys, I haven't gotten to see the full progression on the other side. That's the honest truth.

There's one guy that was in New York where like he was actually getting direction from coaches of stuff to help push him further out of this bubble. I didn't know him long enough to see the full arc.

There's a guy I know presently who I OM with frequently and wherever he is in his stage, he knows that he's connected a lot more to how he's not getting what he truly wants and he can speak up for that desire. For example, he's not comfortable accepting a blow job because, he's not comfortable speaking up for that's something that he wants. So, he'd much rather focus on a woman's desire and trying to make her happy.

He also knows that he's not bringing in the kind of woman that he wants because, he's not taking other steps in his life. If the kind of woman that he wants is like a Selma Hayek or something like that, he knows that he's not exactly on that level. So, he needs to do things like move out so he can have his own apartment, have a job where he's earning more money, take better care of himself instead of being a delivery guy who's living in a house with four roommates.

There are definitely guys who are on that path. I just don't have the, "Well, this one started out here and thanks to OM, now he's here." I don't have the full story for you.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. That's good. I'll just give you my impression based on what I've seen. I think OM is good or guys to develop greater intimacy. This is kind of why I sought it out in the first place. I'd tried it with a couple of girlfriends and I was interested on that level.

I didn't really know about the whole OM swinging part. That's something I kind of learned on the way there. It was interesting. I thought, "Oh, this is cool, this whole community thing." But my idea was to do it with my girlfriends when I first went to do the course and stuff and I certainly will be doing it with girlfriends because, I think it's a useful part to develop intimacy and stuff or introduce them to it at least.

So, I think it's a great tool for guys to learn and great community for them to learn about building on their intimacy and relating to women, being able to relate to women emotionally. A lot of guys have issues developing this part of themselves.

Sometimes, they have a lot of success with women especially with like causal hookups and things like that but, they don't have the other side and they're not so strong on relationship. Maybe every time they get into a relationship, it just doesn't last very long. That's when I think this kind of thing can be very helpful.

On the other area is where they don't feel comfortable in intimacy and just by the fact by doing this for a while, they can get more comfortable being around women and especially with the sexually anatomy involved. I did feel that most men are relatively un-dominant in the community.

There was a really good example, I met a very cool guy in one of the turn on events and he was an ex-drug dealer, like a real gangster, problem to society basically. One day, he decided to switch up and become religious and then, he dropped that because, that wasn't for him. He came to OM and you could see that had sparked this other part of his personality that he hadn't known most of his life because, he had been in such a hard environment. He had no idea about it but yet, he was very balanced individual now.

You could see his very strong masculine side of him, his lion for sure but, he also had this other very intimate side. So, I felt like he was very balanced person at that point.

[Toni]: That's the thing that OM provides for someone who is what you're describing with the lacking sexual experience, lacking in esteem and feeling like they have to play smaller than they actually truly are in order to get what they want. That it allows more room and encourages the incorporation of both. If I were to describe my dream guy, he's strong and he's also tender. Those contrast, those are what exist and that's what I want.

Another thing and this is just coming from my own experience, when I have that juicy orgasm feeling like flowing in me, I feel like when I’m walking down the street, it's not just that I feel like I'm hot shit. It's like I know that I have more confidence in my dating life because, I have turn on flowing through me and that's attractive to others whether that's again in a job interview or when you're out on a date.

For the guys who are in that category of playing less than they really and the unassuming, like shoulders hunched ones, OM can help not only incorporate but those other things but, when you've got that juicy orgasmic feeling flowing through you, that is attractive. That is attractive to other humans. We smell it. They smell it.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, basically getting into the flow. If the guy learns to get into the flow in this process and he really starts to feel it, I think that has a value in itself as well. I think that's what you’re saying. He begins to be able to express himself more and be himself more by connecting with that flow all the time. That's another great thing for it for sure.

Toni, thanks so much for all of this. Yes, this is really good. If someone was going to get involved with the whole OM thing, how would you suggest their first step should be? Should they go to a turn on event or what would be the easiest way to get in and not getting freaked out by it?

[Toni]: I would totally recommend going to a turn on. I feel like it's a fun, easy introduction. I've brought people to turn ons. It's the best first thing that I recommend. Turn ons are also completely geared that if people have more questions and want to know more about the OMing experience. That's where to go.

There's also a really great TED talk that Nicole Daedone did about Orgasmic Meditation that's on YouTube.

[Angel Donovan]: I've haven't read her book. You mentioned the book earlier.

[Toni]: She also has the book "Slow Sex."

[Angel Donovan]: Have you read that?

[Toni]: I have it on my night stand. I'm working on it.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, I haven't read it either. Anyway, we can vogue for it.

[Toni]: Those are the place that I would recommend starting.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, well I ask everyone who comes on this pod cast this question at the end. What are your top three recommendations to men who want to improve their dating lives as fast as possible.

[Toni]: Ooooo. I would recommend OMing. That would be one. Another one I would recommend is listening, is to just practice the art of listening. They'll be amazed what a difference that makes. I guess the third one would be (this may sound really, I don’t know) is to really love yourself honestly. Love yourself in the way in like your whole messy fantastic self because, that's attractive to other people.

If I met somebody who had such a whole inside themselves that no amount of love I could pour into it would be enough, I would run the other direction. That whole line of, "You complete me," that is the biggest red light that could ever come up ever. So, in terms of like loving yourself and taking care of yourself, that's the most attractive thing, I would say.

[Angel Donovan]: I think that's a great point we've never had that on the show before. Thanks for that. That's a great point.

[Toni]: You're welcome. I got to be original.

[Angel Donovan]: Thanks for your time again.

[Toni]: You're welcome. Hope that was helpful.

[Angel Donovan]: Yes, it was.