Ep. #5 Say "No" to Routines, "Yes" to Interests & Passions with David Wygant

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David Wygant Interview

More About Today's Guest

David Wygant Bio David Wygant Inc. Company
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  • What his approach to dating is and why you shouldn't use routines.
  • How confidence and listening 'when done the right way' are the most important things you need to do to get results with women.
  • An example of how not to use your listening and observation skills with women.
  • How your interests and passions can be used to develop confidence with women.
  • What he has added to his "Date to Win" ebook to make it easier to implement for students.
  • Some examples from his own life of approaching women in ways that work.

Books, Courses and Training from David Wygant

Date To Win
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7.8
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Guys Guide To Texting
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6.1
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0.0
Secrets Of Online Dating
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6.0
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0.0
Group Bootcamp
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0.0
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0.0

Full Text Transcript of the Interview

[Angel Donovan]: Hi, this is Angel Donovan, and today I’m in NYC in a slightly noisy café—sorry for that—with David Wygant. Hi David.

[David Wygant]: Wygant. That's alright everybody…

[Angel Donovan]: Oh, Wygant. Sorry, man.

[David Wygant]: Yeah, that's alright. Everybody always does that. It’s like this curse, you know. It’s funny. It’s like the “y” is there but yet people will go for the “i,” and it’s a very interesting dynamic…

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: I’ve heard it my whole entire life and you know what, I don’t even care. I go just by my first name anyway.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: It’s so much easier. I just lose the last name, just be called David, and call it a day.

[Angel Donovan]: You can’t fight the trend.

[David Wygant]: Nah, you can’t fight it, it's the last name I’ve heard for so long, so. And we’re in the W Hotel in New York because I’ve always loved this hotel…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah…

[David Wygant]: …except whenever I go look at rates it’s like, you’ve got to be kidding me.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Well, it has got a nice wifi area too.

[David Wygant]: It’s a room, it’s a bed, price line, Hotwire will get you that four-star for 200 bucks that looks exactly like…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: You know, the room looks exactly the same, so there’s a good tip for the guys.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Alright, well, great. What we’re first wanting to do is just talk about what David Wygant isn’t into compared to the other guys out there, because he's a little bit different. So, David, what are the kind of things that you’re against, you don’t like to talk about, you don’t think I should be doing?

[David Wygant]: I’m against routine.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: I mean, here’s the thing. I mean, I was brought up by a very cool woman and I had very cool woman, you know, her friends taught me a lot of stuff when I was 16, 17 and 18. And I have to tell you, lines and routines are ridiculous when we can smell it just by the way you carry it off, and what happens is beginners will try to memorize these lines. So they go over there, and a woman, it’s all about energy. It’s about connecting. It’s about a feeling. It’s about an emotion that she has when she’s really in your presence. And when you throw a line out on her and you stand there and wait for her to come back, she knows that you’re doing that. She feels that you’re doing that. So I’m so against all these guys that go, “Let's use the A1 approach and the B2 followup and the C17 close.”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: It’s like you’re mechanical. You’ll look like an idiot. And the fact of the matter is, even if you can get the phone number, you’ve left nothing of yourself behind. So you haven’t really bonded with her. You haven’t really created any emotion in her. You haven’t shared anything about yourself. So what happens is maybe you get the phone number from a drunken woman or a low-self-esteem girl, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Wygant]: And then you call her up, she doesn’t know who you are.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: And nine times out of 10 she’ll never call you back because really, she only gave out her number because she was having a pretty bad day, a pretty bad week in dating. And the very next day she was at a farmers’ market and some guy looked at her when she dropped the tomato and he goes, “You’re a klutz, man. Did you bruise that tomato? Let's check it out,” right? And he got her right in that moment that she was looking for that serendipitous moment. So I’m so against routines. I’m so against excuses that these guys have, these diseases they’ve created.

[Angel Donovan]: Like what’s an excuse?

[David Wygant]: Like approach anxiety.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[David Wygant]: Oh, come on, it’s not a disease, okay?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: It’s a manifestation in your mind. Nobody has approach anxiety. It’s just the excuse that you love to hang on to so you don’t have to go and fail.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: And another thing, too, is that, you know, what I really despise are these men-boys that sell these systems that a guy thinks it’s going to be 100%, it’s really going to work, right? You can attract any woman. Bullshit. There’s something called chemistry out there in this world, okay?

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[David Wygant]: There are odds in life, you know that. If you’re in sales, do you meet 10 people and close 10 people? No. If you’re playing football, if you complete 60% of your passes you’re in the Hall of Fame. Baseball, three hits out of 10 at bats, you’re rolling right now, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Wygant]: But yet, when it comes down to meeting women, the guys think it has to buck all the odds and all the trends…

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: …and they think that there's like this magical pill that's going to allow them to walk up to any woman and every single woman’s just going to get wet in the pants and ooze with sexuality because this guy stepped into their presence at that very moment. Bullshit. Learn yourself, learn who you are, get inner confidence, and you know what’s going to happen? Then you’re going to create chemistry and it’s going to be real, and then you’re going to meet people, instead of just this desperate feeling that most guys have. God, I look at the streets in New York and I can smell desperation. I go to a bar and I see desperation.

[Angel Donovan]: That's great. So you call this the natural approach, right? Is that kind of what…?

[David Wygant]: I call it being confident…

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[David Wygant]: …because there are a lot of people now selling the natural approach. You know, you don’t sell natural approach.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[David Wygant]: You gain confidence, and that's something that people feel out.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: I mean, you know a confident person when they walk in whether it’s a man, whether it’s a woman, whether it’s a 5-year-old child, whether it’s a dog. If the dog’s walking down the street, the tail’s up in the air, there's a confident dog. If the dog’s got its shoulders slumped and the tail between its legs, there’s an insecure PUA dog, okay?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: So what it is is it’s confidence. If you can’t develop confidence, fall in love with yourself, believe in who you are, then you know what? You’re just going to attract a low-self-esteem woman like yourself, you’re going to attract an insecure woman like yourself, you’re going to date somebody who drives you crazy who’s needy like yourself, and you know what? You’re just going to go through a series of lessons till you finally figure out that no routine ever really works and you have to develop your own confidence and believe in yourself…

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: …because I truly believe that every single person is a unique, incredible individual, and that's what people need to realize, that we’re individuals.

[Angel Donovan]: These are all great points. I totally agree with all of them. And I was reading Date to Win before this just to get an idea of what you’re talking about, and there was all this stuff about confidence and everything in it. You just told me that you’ve updated it recently, so what I’d like to do is talk a bit about some of the good stuff in there. Now, what I liked about Date to Win in the beginning is I think it’s great for someone who’s just getting into this because of this kind of step-by-step approach. You introduce him to his own limitations and what he thinks about himself, and you’re kind of trying to push him to look at his dating life and think about what he needs to change. Can you kind of give us a bit of the mindset?

[David Wygant]: You know, I tell guys all the time, okay, that if you want to be this incredible dynamic person with women, you have to believe in being that dynamic incredible person.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: So there's no shortcut. There really isn’t. And guys lean on me all the time and I get so annoyed, you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: “If you could just help me in this one situation, my life will change.” No it won’t, because you’re not confident.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: Because I can smell lack of confidence. So what these exercises do is they teach you how to really retune yourself into the environment that you live in because really, life is just a stage and that's all it is. Everywhere you go you’re literally directing and being involved in your own movie. So if you can observe, and all of us can observe because they learn that as children, so our parents basically told us to stop observing and start becoming fearful of things.

So, what I teach men is to really go out and observe the surroundings. A woman is drinking a glass of water. She’s all sweaty and hot. She sucks it down. My God, it’s very simple to walk over and just go, “Man, you are thirsty,” you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Wygant]: And it’s the way you say it. You know, there's that Jerry Maguire moment. Remember that movie, Jerry Maguire?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I love that movie.

[David Wygant]: You know, when he babbles and babbles and babbles and babbles and babbles and she said, “Stop, you had me at hello.”

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: It’s because hello is a very powerful word. Hello had authority. And men need to realize that it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it and how you own your words. I have walked up to women in so many situations. I’ve walked up to them in a Victoria’s Secret, they were looking at lingerie. I walk directly over to them and go, “My God, if your boyfriend doesn’t think that's the hottest thing in the world, give me his number, okay, because I’m going to beat him senseless and get him a pair of glasses.” And I’ll say that with a fucking smile across my face left and right and I’ll own those words, right? The woman will look at me immediately and go, “It’s not…I don’t have a boyfriend.” I’ll be like, “Well, when are you going to wear it for me?”

And boom, confidence, right? Why do I stay stuff like that? Because I have observed it. I observe a woman looking for lingerie, I’m going to roll the dice, I’m going to say it. And women love ballsy stuff. I mean, they watch James Bond movies, they watch George Clooney, they watch these Hugh Grant movies, and all they do is get wet when a guy walks over there and says the most crazy random thing based on what’s going on in their reality.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: So those exercises are teaching guys how to really do that, kind of see these things, and then how to use it, because openers are only good if you come up with them.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: Otherwise, you know, a woman’s looking at lingerie, and then you walk over and go, “Excuse me, who cheats more, men or women? I read that Stylelife and I just…my name is Tommy TuTone,” you know what I mean? It’s like, come on. The woman’s thinking of hot lingerie either for herself or for a guy in the future she hasn’t met yet or the boyfriend that she’s trying to rekindle with and she’s thinking sex, and you walk over there and you come up with some stupid thing. “I’m thinking of a number between one and seven. Oh my God, you said seven?” I could strangle those things, and that's what those voices are for, because I really…those guys talk like that because they don’t own their words.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: So these exercises are designed, in the new version of it I put exercises in there, Angel, where people…where guys actually record themselves talking, speaking, telling stories, listening to themselves, because one of the greatest exercises that men never do is go out, talk to people and record it, see if you’re interesting or not. Then go home and tell a story about how you had the best tuna fish sandwich, who cares what the subject is, and listen.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: Was it exciting? Was it interesting? Would you interject something? Okay?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: So it’s doing this work. And if guys do this work, women are easy. Not only that, they’ll make so much more money in their business because they’ll learn how to be communicative and listen.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. I really like the exercises. I mean, my theory is like, whoops, like that is that the guys read them and they don’t do the exercises, which is their own fault. But they really have to do those exercises to get the value, right? And there was a lot in there. You said something about the lingerie opener. I think for a lot of guys starting at this, that might seem really, really scary and extreme. So, how would you get them from where they are today? Do they take little steps to go that far or do they never go that far…?

[David Wygant]: No, they take baby steps. I couldn’t do the lingerie opener until I did the observation. So I tell people it’s the same theory. It’s the same thing every time. Observe.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Wygant]: So walk out, walk out into your world one day and observe everything you see, and then write it down, because what you’re writing down is how you open. A woman trips and falls, you think to yourself, “What a klutz.” There's an opener, okay?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: A woman is drinking a cup of coffee, she looks like she burned her lip, you can walk over there and say, “Did you burn your lip on that cup of coffee?”

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[David Wygant]: You see a woman looking at muffins at a farmers’ market. You see her darting back and forth eye to eye, and you look at her and go, “Can’t decide? Do you want a muffin or do you want a cookie?” right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Wygant]: I mean, vary your opener. So you really can go out all day long and observe and create natural openers. The next thing to do is to go out there and say hello to people so you realize that people don’t hate you.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: You realize that people are not angry. You realize that people are really looking to be friendly because most people walk around life in a coma. They’re basically in a self-induced coma. They’re looking for someone else to lead them out of that coma. The problem is everybody’s waiting for somebody to lead them out of that coma, right?

So if you go out and say hello, all of a sudden you realize that people are actually pretty friendly. Aha! So what do you do next? Then you go and you take those observations and you go out there and talk to everybody, men, women, children, dogs, cats, aliens, it doesn’t make a difference, because what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to become that friendly guy.

If you’re out there all day long talking to everybody, right? When you finally see the hot woman, it’s not going to be like you haven’t gone up to the plate all day long. You’ve been talking to people. You’ve been friendly. Your energy’s great. The woman will sense it, smell it, see it, and actually become attracted to you before you even open your mouth. So when you open your mouth you’re opening it based on an observation like you’ve been doing all day long, and the conversation is effortless. So you can start very slowly.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: Really slowly. Another thing that I tell guys to do in the new version of the book is find five places where you’re an expert. So let's say you love going to Whole Foods because you’re a lazy person and you don’t like to cook. Let's say you’re a coffee addict. Let's say you’re an alcoholic. Let's say you’re a movie buff, right? So what do you do? You go Saturday night to the movies, okay, you go to a video store and you can talk to people about what? Movies, common-ground stuff. You’re at Whole Foods and you’ve eaten there every single day of your life because you’re lazy or any other market, you could talk to people about turkey meatloaf, right? You can have a conversation.

So I tell guys to create a story that they can use in every single situation. For me, for instance, I have a dog. I’ve had a dog my entire adult life. Not the same dog because then the dog would be very old. But whenever a woman sees my dog she would say the same thing, “Oh my God, she’s so cute.” So I had a story that I would always share.

“You think she’s cute? Let me tell you something. I pay all the bills, she’s a freeloader. I walk in at night and I step on a rawhide, okay? And I’m a person who likes to take my shoes off before I come into my house. Step on a rawhide, it digs into my foot, right? And not only that, she’s on the couch wagging her tail. She doesn’t even greet me, she’s so lazy. Do you want her?”

And I’ve done it all my life. And I’ll look at my dog and I’ll get down on my knees and I’ll go, “Go ahead, go to your new master,” right? And I’ll command the woman, “Come on. Come on down. Come on down here, meet my dog. Daphne, this is, what’s your name?” She goes, “Amy.” “Daphne, Amy. Amy, Daphne. You guys bond a little bit and I’ll let you have her.” The girl would go, “Really?” And I go, “What are you kidding?” I said, “You think I’m crazy enough to give my dog to a total stranger?”

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[David Wygant]: I said, “I don’t even know you yet. I don’t know anything about you, your eating habits, your life, your exercise. I mean, like, God, you could be like a chronic alcoholic, you know, putting booze in my dog’s bowl.” And I have used that probably 2000 times. Is it a routine? No, because a routine means you don’t listen. A routine means that you have this opener and you think there’s an answer after the fact. I created this myself because I know it works. And if you think about life, we can create our own openers based on what works, and that's why I tell guys to go into these places. Go into these places, and if you’ve eaten the turkey meatloaf a thousand times and a woman says, “I’ll have turkey meatloaf,” you can go…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: “You know, I’m a turkey meatloaf expert.” And you can just talk about like, “This is the best turkey meatloaf you’ve ever had in your entire life. Have you eaten here before? Have you had it before?” You can share and talk and communicate and bond. So that's a great exercise for guys to do and they won’t do it. A lot of them will think to themselves, “Oh my God, I have to work! I have to work to do this?”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: Yeah, like you want to make a million dollars? Why don’t you just go lay naked in the middle of Bryant Park with a sign on saying, “Please put money up my ass right now because I’m too lazy to work?” So it’s crazy. If you work at this, it’s amazing. If you do these things, these are all the things that I did to meet the most beautiful woman in the world all over the world.

If you hear that all the time Angel with guys that go and they say, “This won’t work in London. This won’t work in China. This won’t work in Detroit. There must be a different method.” Really? Because I’ve been laid in every single state, every continent. Everywhere all over the world I have met an incredible, amazing beautiful woman and I’ve had like this, you know, not just sex, you know, that amazing, spiritual sex where you’re just connecting with them, not just like plowing them for a notch on the belt.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, great stuff. Like one of the things I noticed in…this is kind of what you were just talking about, is the conversation. You talk about man talk and woman talk, did you keep that in the new version?

[David Wygant]: Oh God, yeah. Man talk and woman talk is great because as men we talk like this in sentences, “So, hey, how you doing, man?” “I’m doing great.” “Wow, you’re from London? Cool. I love London.” “Me too. What are you doing in New York? You’re doing an interview? That's so cool, man. What type of stuff? Is it…” “No. We’re going to…” So, really, in men, we have a 30-second conversation, we’ve exchanged man facts.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: These are man facts. So now we know whether or not we could be friends in 30 seconds or less, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: Okay, I can hang with this guy, man. He's got common interests, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: Women, they look at you like you have ADD when you do that. So women, you look and just go, “Man, you’re from New York?” She goes, “No, I actually grew up in Westchester.” If you don’t say, “Really? Where?” She can’t—she wants to share. She wants to share with you her upbringing in Westchester and where she lived and how she’s still daddy’s girl and all that other stuff. You can’t sit there and fun fact her to death on the first 30 seconds.

A woman, it’s just a story that goes into another story into another long…and really after 20 minutes you might really just be talking deeper about her upbringing and childhood. And then after 20 minutes she goes, “Oh my God, I’ve never told a total stranger this.” Man talk, we’ve covered 75 different topics in 20 minutes.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: So it’s a really important thing to learn because if you don’t learn how to speak their language, you’ll never learn how to connect with them. And the more you learn how to speak their language, the better the sex is because then they feel like they’re having sex with themselves. And it’s wonderful, because a woman loves to connect with somebody she thinks is her soul mate, because women are into this stuff.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: Get into this stuff, guys. If you’re not into it, you’re never going to learn. And if you want to have caveman sex your whole life, then fine, but it’s not worth it. Caveman sex versus real sex, there's no comparison.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Yeah, so you talked about attraction momentum, I guess that's in there, and this method that like kind of guys have of being very ADD. So you take someone who’s kind of new to this and he asks 20 questions, which is what you were just talking about, right? So like, how old are you, where do you come from, and other bits, which is as you say very distracting for the girl and you can’t develop any rapport or anything. But you go on to talk about attraction momentum and how a girl will slowly get more attracted to you as you allow the conversation to kind of stay on the subject and develop naturally.

[David Wygant]: If you’re going in there and you’re going in there like a bull in a china shop, and that's what I call openers, right? There is no attraction going to be formed.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: If you go in there and you listen and you listen and you react and like you go, “Oh wow, that's so cool,” and you react and you encourage her to speak more and you share something about yourself, the attraction starts building because what happens is women are very emotional-based creatures.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Wygant]: They’re not instantly attracted with their penis, because they don’t have a penis, right? They like to connect emotionally. So they like to connect in a moment. They want that magic moment to happen, like all of a sudden it’s Christmastime, bells are ringing. All of a sudden she’s feeling in a holiday mood. She’s looking at the Saks Fifth Avenue window, and you walk over and just go, “God, that reminds me of my childhood.”

I said, “I remember when my dad used to come here. When was the first time you saw this window?” And then all of a sudden she goes, “God, it’s so funny.” She goes, “My dad brought me here when I was 6 years old.” I said, “Where’d you grow up?” And all of a sudden you start talking and it gets deeper and she shares something about herself.

That's what attraction is to women. They share. You share something, she shares something. It’s not fun facts. There's no mission in fun facts. And you can’t do well if you’re like Larry King. “So tell me the last time you had an orgasm? That's just wonderful. Great. So tell me about the relationship you had with Jay-Z. Really? That's just wonderful. So tell me how many years you’ve lived in New York City. Oh, fantastic. So tell me, do you drink water or Aquafina? Oh, fantastic.” You know what I mean?

That's like…I know guys that have done that because they’ve been coached by these man-boy PUA guys to like ask questions, and listen, and be mysterious. No, you sound like a talk show host, okay? Because I’ve seen guys do this and I’ve seen women after five minutes go, “What are you, interviewing me?” [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: So feel, respond, look in their eyes, show them you’re a real man. It’s like real men have eye contact. Real men don’t worry about their body language. Real men lead with their own body language. And I put that into the new version because I truly believe that if you lead with your body language, who cares what her hair flip is?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Wygant]: Because if you’re looking for like the flip of the hair, you’re not paying attention to what she’s saying. Oh my God, she flipped her hair! What does it mean? It meant that she flipped her hair. She had an itch and she took her finger—and you didn’t notice this—against her scalp and she moved it, and she took care of that itch and she flipped her hair. She crossed her leg to the left, what does it mean?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: Well, you know, her leg is now facing you. It could mean that she’s attracted to you, but it can also really mean that she’s more comfortable. Or maybe she’s wearing the egg vibrator and it’s vibrating too strong and she wants to squeeze her legs together again, who the hell knows? Who cares? Lead and she will follow.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So you took another whole overanalysis, you know. What do you think about, I mean, there are quite a lot of guys who read a lot of books out there. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Should they try and limit the number of things they read and get out there? What would you suggest they do?

[David Wygant]: I suggest, who do you want to be? You know, take a look at who you’re buying from. Don’t buy from anybody who doesn’t put a picture of themselves up, because then you’re buying from the Wizard of Oz…

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: …basically a guy that probably can’t get laid if his life depended on it, but he's really good in theory so he's able to write and market the hell out of you. So you’re buying from that.

Check out the lifestyle of the person you’re buying from. Are they a cool person? Are they somebody that you want to hang with? I mean, look at…you know, I’m not a George Bush fan at all, but he got elected because everybody thought he could have a beer with him. I mean, that's the same thing. Is this somebody that you can hang with? Is this somebody that cultivates…? Is this somebody who has a lifestyle like yours? Are they in a relationship?

You know, be careful of the gurus that aren’t in relationships and haven’t had one, because there's something scary about that. Because really, what is the end result of this? So you want to meet a great woman, right? Really, if you think about it, most guys doing this don’t want to be Don Juan, don’t really want to be a perpetual bachelor. Most of them really eventually would like to get married and meet somebody. So take a look at the guy. Take a look at his personal life.

Also take a look at how much he exposes of his personal life. How much do you know about him? Does he believe his own messaging? Does he have a good reputation?

And try to find somebody, honestly, who’s a little older than you. If you’re 21 years old, don’t buy from a 21-year-old guy. What the hell does he know? Buy from somebody who’s gone through it. If you’re a divorced guy, I don’t care how good a 25-year-old is at picking up women, he has no clue what it’s like to be divorced. So why would you even go and buy something from a guy who’s never been married, never had that mindset before, and doesn’t understand where you’re at?

So just find that person that it relates to and then work with that person, really buy their products, ask questions. I got email coaching that I do. Ask questions, maybe go to a seminar that they do. But really invest money and time in yourself because, you know, I’ve done that. We’ve all done that as an entrepreneur. Every time I started a business, I would go invest money in a business coach, a lot of money in a business coach, five figures, so I can learn some of the ins and outs of that business, right? Because that's what we do, we research. It’s research and development.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: So find somebody you relate to. Ask yourself those questions. Could you hang with this person? If a guy’s name is Trevi Deli Man, PUA, are you going to be able to go introduce him to all your buddies? “Hey man, I learned a lot from Trevi Deli, the PUA guy.” Think about it.

And I’m not knocking, you know, I’ve been known to knock PUAs, that's always been my schtick, but I don’t have much respect for most of them because I don’t like what they do. I’ve seen most of them. I’ve seen the way they dress, the way they act. They’re man-boys, most of them, and they’re not really understanding the concept. And then there are some guys that are just really good. There are some guys that are in relationships who really value women, and most of them are older.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Yeah, let's…I want to go just a little bit back to the whole thing of routines you were saying and asking loads of questions, which guys tend to do that when they’re anxious and they get nervous and they start falling back on just questions, because they’re kind of like saying, “I don’t want to own this. I just want to fire questions and let the girl take responsibility, so I’m just putting all the emphasis her. She’s going to drive the whole thing because I don’t feel like I can carry it because I’m scared.” So routines are one of the ways guys try to get over that. Now, how would you say they should get over that? Instead of using routines, what would they do to try and get over this like anxiety which causes them just to fall back on these questions?

[David Wygant]: Really go to one place that you’re comfortable.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: Really master one location, wherever, and you’ve got to make sure there are women there, okay? Can’t be the Worlds of Warlord game room on 14th Street, right? You go to a place where you know you’re knowledgeable of things. If you’re a wine aficionado, go to wine stores. If you’re a coffee shop aficionado, go to coffee shops. But start talking to people. Not just women, people. You have to become a good conversationalist first, right? The men that just sit back and wait for the beautiful woman to pass by are always the men that are continually sitting back waiting for the beautiful woman to pass by.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: So start talking to people. Sit down in the coffee shop and start talking to people. Start talking to neighbors. Maybe you’re a foodie. And I do this all the time in restaurants. I love food. So, I mean, right now we’re sitting at a table, so picture right now there's a—and I did this yesterday with a client. There was this absolutely breathtakingly beautiful woman and her mother. Mother is like 60 and beautiful, the girl’s probably 25 and beautiful.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: I’m just sitting there, you know, and all of a sudden it’s like they’re eating something, and they get the couscous and my friend, my client, had the couscous, and I look at him, I go, “I saw you look at her food. I did. You copied, okay? I saw you do it. I mean, it’s great marketing, isn’t it?”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: And they start cracking up, right? And we get into this like amazing conversation about this restaurant and the food there, and then how long they’ve been living in the city, and then we talked about family and, I mean, it just went. So you get good at things you’re good at, and by communicating with anybody, communicating with the mother, communicating with the father, communicating with a guy, you start getting confident and realizing, “Hey, I got good communication skills. I can talk. People like me.” And you start smiling, you start feeling good.

And if you do this every day in that one place, you start getting really like confident. Your confidence starts feeling good so that you think to yourself, “Well, if I could do this in Starbucks or a restaurant, I could do this in the supermarket. I can do this in a bar.” So find that place and build your communication skills.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. And then it’ll feel more comfortable and these issues won’t come up. So it’s kind of like a step-by-step confidence-expanding process. You should always be trying to expand your conversational comfort, and eventually it’ll just get easier with even the girls you’re attracted to, because in the book you also say that it’s only really when you come against the girl you’re attracted to where all of this anxiety and fear kicks in and stops you behaving the way you wanted, right?

[David Wygant]: Well, yeah, I mean, I call it the lip-quivering moment, you know. It’s because you’ve not done a thing all day long. You haven’t built up confidence. So you walk over to this woman, you walk over like a scared dog. If you’ve ever seen two dogs together, there’s a dog, confident, just sitting wagging its tail, and the insecure dog kind of slouches its shoulders and walks over, right? Usually the confident dog could care less about the insecure dog. It’s natural. They feel this. We smell it. We sense it.

So, you really have to realize that the reason why I can walk over to any single woman is because I don’t care about the outcome. I don’t care whether or not she’s going to be sucking my dick tonight. I don’t care whether or not she’s going to be my next girlfriend. I don’t have a fantasy about her at all. I walk over to her and I just basically present myself and see if she’s worthy of me because I know I’m the catch.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: Not her. So these guys, just they haven’t worked on their skills enough and they’re always waiting for that like homerun moment, and that homerun moment doesn’t come. And a good analogy is, look at most…how come when Peyton Manning, if he gets hurt, which he never does, but let's say the quarterback gets hurt and second-string quarterback comes in, all hell usually breaks loose on the field, you know, interception, sack, fumble. Why? They’re not in the flow of the game. And life is a game, and you’ve got to get into the flow of life in order to be a master of the game.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, great. And, like, we’re talking about getting comfortable with conversation here. Another thing you talk about is wing flappers and people talking too much, and how women have told you, “I wish that guy would have just shut up. I was so attracted to him, and he just kept on talking and after a while it was gone.” So what’s that about?

[David Wygant]: Well, the art of conversation is to listen.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Wygant]: And the fact is talkers like to manipulate conversation. So they’re like deeper braggers, okay? So what they do is, some reason or another…and it’s funny, yesterday I was with a client, and I wrote a blog, because I write a blog every day on my site, and I wrote one called Airplane Boy.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: There was this 5-year-old kid, we were sitting in the deli, right? And the kid, I looked at the kid and the kid was running around in circles pretending he was an airplane. I looked at him, he looked at me, and he thought I was thinking he was cute. In reality, I was thinking like, “Fucking kid’s got no discipline whatsoever. It’s like we’re in a public restaurant, he should be sitting down eating with his mother who should be able to sit for 15 minutes and then take this hyperactive monster to the park.”

[Angel Donovan]: And a little fact you might not know is that David just had a baby recently, so it’s kind of related. [Laughs]

[David Wygant]: Yeah, exactly. They’re like tyrants.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: So here’s the thing. I mean, you have like this kid looking. So he looks at me, right? And all of a sudden he whizzes by me like an airplane 10, 15 times. That guy is going to come back and be a wing flapper one day, right? Because he has no clue of what people are feeling. He's not in touch with his emotions because as a young kid his mom has let him run rampant and he's got no discipline.

And that's what it is. It’s like verbal discipline. So the guy that's basically bragging has no clue how much he's actually repelling people, when he goes over and starts bragging, “You know, the other day, man, I tell you, oh man, I just had a great day. I got a bonus, and I got rid of my Audi A6. And I just wanted an RS8 and I got it.” They’re always talking about themselves. “I was in London, you know, and it was wonderful. I stayed at the W in London. I have to tell you something. Don’t you love me?” It’s like, ugh, vomit. She doesn’t want to fuck you. She wants to, “Fuck you.” She wants to give you the finger and tell you to get the hell out of there, because you’re not a listener.

And usually these guys are conversation killers. So what happens, you’re in an art gallery party, you know nothing about art, right? You’re standing around a bunch of people and everybody’s talking about art. Instead of kicking back and listening and learning because life repeats itself every 30 days and you’re going to need this information again at the next art party you go to, right, so you can actually contribute, this guy goes, “Well, I’ll tell you, I had a taxi ride the other day and I have to tell you…” They just start…they change conversation topics because they can’t stand being a background figure. They always think they have to be in the foreground, but in reality everybody wants to keep him in the background.

[Angel Donovan]: That's really interesting. So they should stick with the conversation of the theme where they are, the situation, like you were saying, like go to places where you feel comfortable, right? If it’s wine or whatever. But there’s also like if you don’t feel like you have any of that, I guess it’s to like pick one and start developing your experience in that area. You’ll have to start somewhere, and if you don’t know much, maybe not talk about the taxi but just try to make some conversation.

[David Wygant]: You have to start.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: I mean, it’s just not going to happen. It’s like, stop the madness, like all these guys are insane that think there's a miracle cure. Hey, let me give you a pill. It’s called ecstacy, okay? Take ecstacy, okay? Every single day. And I guarantee you you’re going to get laid within a week.

[Angel Donovan]: How about Prozac? That one works too.

[David Wygant]: Nah, these guys can’t use Prozac. Ecstacy you get them out of their head and into their heart, you know.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[David Wygant]: I mean, and ecstacy, if you think about it, was developed in the seventies for couples that were lacking intimacy, so really, the real meaning behind these new prescriptions…so the real meaning behind the drug was actually that, right? To get people to get out of their social inhibition. So it’s like stop thinking there's a magic pill. Stop thinking there are three words you can say that's going to change…

You know, I remember I was coaching this guy one time and we were in Whole Foods, and you’ll love this, right? So we’re standing there in Whole Foods and I go observe. So I see the woman’s ordering a tuna sandwich. He goes, “Got to love the tuna here.” I said, “Well, go talk to her.” And he walked over and he goes, “You’re ordering my favorite sandwich in the world here. What kind of bread do you have on?” because he was into it.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: They were talking, laughing for 10 minutes because he was at ease. He was an expert. He comes back, he goes, “Oh my God, that was the greatest thing in the entire world. I’ve just figured it all out. I know what I’ve been doing wrong my whole life.” I said, “Great. Let's go to Blockbuster. You’re a movie fan.” He goes, “Absolutely.” I said, “Let's go to Blockbuster and let's go do this again.” He goes, “I can’t wait.”

So we’re in Blockbuster, okay? He sees a woman looking at movies, right? I think she was looking at some Mel Gibson movie, that Bible movie he did a long time ago, right? I forgot what it was called, the controversial one. Great conversation you can have, right? And this guy walks over there like a little kid in a candy store and goes, “Oh my God, have you ever been to Whole Foods across the street? They’ve got the best tuna sandwiches in the world!”

[Angel Donovan]: Seriously? [Laughs]

[David Wygant]: The woman, holding on this movie, right, looks and goes, “Oh, that's nice. Thanks.” “Oh, it’s unbelievable. And I have to tell you, if you have it on the rye bread, make sure you get it toasted.” “Oh, thank you.” And she walked away. He looks at me and he goes, “Well, that didn’t work again. I don’t understand it.”

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[David Wygant]: I said, “What was she doing?” He goes, “She was holding a Mel Gibson movie, like Passions of the Christ or something. I know that movie was controversial and raw.” I said, “And what could you have done?” He said, “I probably could have asked her if she wanted to watch the movie, but this just worked, I wanted to do it again.” I said, “No.” So he got the concept. He just was so excited because he really couldn’t believe that one thing and one thing only would work.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right. Alright, great. So we talked about building confidence, listening. What else have you got in Date to Win that's like key? Or is it like basically building through those steps…

[David Wygant]: Just building through those steps and then finding the places, and then videotaping yourself. One new exercise that I did was videotape yourself telling a story.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: What do you look like? What are you all about? Another new exercise I put in is go to online dating sites and read women’s profiles. Read what they’re looking for.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: Read who they are. Most of these guys don’t even know women because a lot of guys have such limited experience with women. And it’s not a knock at all. We all have to start somewhere.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Wygant]: But they have no experience with women whatsoever, so they don’t really know. All they know is that they want to do them, you know, or they want to go out with them. They want a girlfriend. They’re sick of being alone. But they don’t understand them. So an exercise I tell guys to do, and I go much deeper into the reasons why in the book, is read women’s profiles. Read them.

[Angel Donovan]: That's a good idea.

[David Wygant]: And learn women.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Wygant]: And then I go off on some little tangents and some little exercises that they can do that really get deeper so they can even get deeper and understand women even more.

[Angel Donovan]: I look forward to reading it because what I’ve read so far, like I think it’s one of the best things I’ve seen for someone who is really just getting into this dating advice thing and it’s all new to them. Well, David, thank you very much for this interview today.

[David Wygant]: Oh, my pleasure.

[Angel Donovan]: It’s been great to meet you too, and I hope we’re able to do this again sometime.

[David Wygant]: Absolutely. I look forward to it.

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